hexbear

I really appreciate your points here and think they are important, especially the second one. Ive seen people in other comms talk about how they feel bad or anxious about even asking for aid because they dont feel worthy compared to other posters.

People who are posting stupid shit in this thread deserve this level of abrasiveness and calling out. I had to disengage last night because there's an entire 10 replies deep thread complaining about the fact that the online message board gossip they just heard about hasn't resulted in a homeless person getting banned from one of the only places allowing them to access survival funds. That level of hate is vile. Frankly this site would never allow that kind of dog whistle and concern troll style posting against our GSM and POC comrades and we shouldn't tolerate it against homeless ones.

Pretending that some kind of rules lawyering and virtue signaling on an online anonymous message board is going to "more efficiently" solve mutual aid problems is equally as stupid as thinking that we're going to start the next communist revolution or "get Bernie elected". Grow the fuck up.

We're ships passing in the night. Some of those ships need money. Other ships want to help. Leave it alone. It's not the community's business to get into this drama. It's the business of the users involved and the mods/admins on how they want to run mutual aid. Making this the communities business is going to be a good way to fuck up a unique and unabashedly good part of the fediverse permanently over some petty Hasan vs Ethan style bullshit. These aren't podcasters mining drama for clicks, they're real people.

Yes to all except the amount cap. The problem isn't so much the amounts requested but the frequency of those requests overshadowing other people who also need help. If someone really needs a large amount with a good justification, it would be a shame to limit the help we can give them.

I said this in our DM, so I'll say it publicly. I used to be a step parent. One day, my ex's sister got arrested and I became a parent to an extra kid over night. We needed hundreds of dollars to make him comfortable, and just to keep him out of state custody (drug tests, handling old traffic tickets, ect.). We got that money mostly from here. Between family and Hexbear, we got an extra $500 that week and we used every cent. Just the drug tests for the courts were $60 a person. Yes, there were resources for foster parents that we got access to later on, but those took months to access. We got his Christmas with those, and we were hit with this the day before Halloween. There's no reason to arbitrarily cap how much people can need/give, that's between the people who give and receive.

I have not properly investigated the conditions that led to this discussion, but:

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No.

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

No.

do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?

That seems messy and inconvenient, no. Honor system.

do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

No.

do you think we should allow meta posts?

More meta posts about doing things IRL to help alleviate the root causes of poverty.

This all seems like it's going to make it so difficult. I was first directed to mutual aid by someone I met on a suicide pact forum. I was on there asking for someone to help me commit suicide because I was so desperate due to my financial situation. Benefits stopped, overdraft maxxed out, rent debt racking up, no money, just a huge pile of debt. With no money for food I'd been trying to use the food bank, but it was awful. To try and prevent people using it if they don't need it, they have strict rules in place. The main one is that you have to be referred there from someone like your GP or citizens advice, someone who can vouch for you that you really are in need. This means needing a GP or citizens advice appointment, even if it's just a phone appointment to explain and prove your circumstances, it could be a really long wait for the appointment or phone call. Then needing to wait for the actual food bank appointment. The amount of food the food bank gives was never enough to last while trying to get referrals and appointments to go back again. I was hungry regularly. So much so that I was trying to get help to end my life and tried selling my prescription meds online as I had no other source of income. Someone on the suicide forum told me about mutual aid, that's how I came to be here. And while I do sometimes have to make multiple posts to get a response, it's still so much easier and quicker than the food bank. My worry is if you add these extra rules it is going to become as difficult to get help here as it was from the food bank. And for me, as well as many others, this is the last chance saloon. We have nowhere else to turn. Making it harder here could be the final straw for many people.

The money limit thing is very dumb.

seems like a lot of overcorrection that gets in the way of helping people who actually need.

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No, users' needs will often vary; limits like this will cause problems.

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

This may make sense, but the Active sort definitely incentivizes posts every 6 to 8 hours instead, and I don't see an easy way around that, unfortunately. I defer to others' opinions on this one.

do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?

On the one hand this sounds like a decent system; on the other hand the potential for abuse does exist. But if people want to try it out, and mods are okay with doing their part, I'd be willing to participate.

do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

Not really, it kinda seems pedantic to me.

do you think we should allow meta posts?

Yes; otherwise there is no way to criticize bad actors, and I am of the opinion that the recent meta post, which I believe prompted this one, was valuable and helpful to the community.

• do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No

• do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

Yes, I think once a day or every other day is fine, multiple times a day is too much and I feel like it drowns out other requestors

• do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

Yes, words mean things.

• do you think we should allow meta posts?

No, if this means posts within the comm about issues like this. It seems to just cause a lot of tension and regardless of how I might feel about what goes on in this particular comm, the passive aggressiveness that has been prevalent on this site more recently feels terrible. I can't imagine how it must feel for the people who are being called out, either.

IF meta posts were to stay I think they shouod be strictly moderated and there would need to be ground rules for participation. The personal attacks are outta control

putting a hard limit on the amount seems like a bad idea. even if some people needing more money leads to other people not getting money (which i don't believe is the case, i believe most donaters will try to donate to a variety of people), some people are just gonna need more money than other people, some people are in more desperate situations that require constant support and some people just need one-off support.

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

no

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

no

do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?

no, because you have no way of actually confirming that they did donate

do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

yea

do you think we should allow meta posts?

idc

don't limit the amount requested

I was just reading and upvoting occasionally up to this point, but I am strongly opposed to a $100 limit (or any financial limit for that matter) and feel I need to directly say so.

There was a time a few years ago where my wife and I were very close to homelessness. We asked in a mutual aid channel of a discord server I sometimes participated in (similar vibe to here, effectively anonymous, mostly just people asking for cash if they need it and giving cash when they can), and thanks to a few very generous people we were able to raise $600. She’s immunocompromised and diabetic, it would have been the two of us and a cat with no car, unable to find work, no way to store insulin, no way to buy insulin, almost certainly unable to mask effectively during a pandemic, and with no friends or family we could turn to. We needed every penny of that money and, through sheer luck and several close calls, managed to avoid the worst case scenario and have now gotten back to a fairly stable living situation.

If there had been a $100 asking limit I am certain that reality would have come to pass and we would not be where we are now. I cannot see any way in which any limit on how much people can ask for will actually, provably help anyone, but I can easily imagine a scenario where a limit endangers or kills people, our comrades and our loved ones.

This is my reply to the dm, which I'm also going to post here.

Are you happy with the community as it currently is?

No. It isn't very effective at getting aid.

users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post

3 times a week is too few and $100 ain't shit. If there's to be a money limit, it needs to be much higher.

display name is changed to "emergency aid"

No opinion.

users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.)

Good idea. Only if the user communicates it. No unsolicited offers, because 9 times out of 10 they probably won't help.

user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format

I usually do this anyway. I think it's a good idea.

users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment

Potentially good idea, but unless they provide receipts I don't think this would work out. What's to stop someone claiming to have donated to make others think the need is already met when it hasn't been?

user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met

Good idea.

meta posts are no longer permitted

Bad idea. There needs to be mechanisms for community discussion.

Just woke up, might have more thoughts later.

Here is my public position.

• do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No.

• do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

No.

• do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?

No.

• do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

Put it to a vote.

• do you think we should allow meta posts?

No, put it to a vote.

• users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.)

Unnecessary. This already occurs when requested.

• user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format

No. Add rule to ask to voluntarily do so if it fits the context of their needs.

• user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met

No to a hard rule. Yes as a voluntary obligation to requestors as they are able to and no unless specifically requested.

• users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post --Imagine walking up to someone homeless and desperate on the street holding a sign that reads "homeless and hungry anything helps" and saying "You've been here every day this week, you can't get anymore aid, you need to leave." That's what this reads like. Limit posts to once a day if you really want to regulate the comm this much, but let the people giving decide the amount. Change the format to require labels like "need for long-term" or something but this just feels like overstepping and a good way to further alienate people who can and want to give more.

• display name is changed to "emergency aid" --pedantic and unnecessary, just avoid the struggle session and keep the comm as it is with the added weekly advice/non-monetary aid posts or something

• users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.) --people should ask in the comments before offering advice, the posters shouldn't have to add this, it should be a given that unless explicitly asked commenters should just shut the fuck up and move on or wait for a thread where advice is meant to be posted

• user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format --this is fine but it has the potential for alienating those who can only give a small amount or stopping those who could give more from doing so when it should be up to the person giving how much they want to contribute, it's none of the community's business how much is being given

• users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment --it's none of the community's business how much is being given, have the OP update the post title and say thanks or if they're good or not or lock it after 72hrs or something, this just feels like such a huge overstep

• user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met --it's none of the community's business how much is being given, see previous answer

• meta posts are no longer permitted --it's on the mods to determine if this is worth it, but changing a single community rule could address the reason this was brought up

• do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested? No.

• do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts? Daily, yes, weekly no.

• do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating? Absolutely not.

• do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid? No.

• do you think we should allow meta posts? I don't think they're happening enough to warrant this.

What is the thinking behind no more than $100 per post? What if someone is in an emergency that needs more than that, or the refugees who advertise their gofundmes? I think this rule would screw many desperate people over. How does this work with people who use other currencies?

Also I don't agree with having to request an amount in the title - I ask for food vouchers and will take whatever someone can give. I often have to make multiple posts before getting a response so i don't want to be limited by how much I can ask for or I'll end up with not enough to tide me over from last time while i wait for a response.

What are meta posts?

Why are all these changes wanted?

As far as keeping track, I've found (since i ask for food vouchers that can be donated anonymously) some people prefer to remain anonymous, so they probably wouldn't report anyway. Also very dangerous - for instance, I got trolled on lemmy by someone who kept saying (for weeks) they would send aid but didn't. He got banned. But people like him want to make life worse for people who need help. They would anonymously report to the mods that they had sent us money, when they actually hadn't.

Weekly limit on amount of posts - this would prevent people from getting the help they need. It took me about 4 posts to get the help I need this time. I had nowhere else to turn.

All in all I think these changes will remove the only lifeline left for some desperate people.

The only change I want to see is the ability to reply in-thread removed. I, and several other people here, have had people comment in our threads saying they're going to help, and then they don't help. Other people see their reply, think we've already been helped and then don't offer any help. It costs us help we would have had from other people.

- users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post

I don’t like the idea of setting a limit on dollar amount. That would be a huge setback for users who are asking for help with things like rent, bills, and losing your house to an IDF terror attack.

As for limiting # of posts per week, I think the problem of visibility on that comm needs to be looked at: even before I ruined it for everyone, I noticed that donations would dry up the moment my post got too old and stopped being “hot,” even with a lot of bumps.

I’ll address the other stuff after I take a nap.

Limiting the amount requested is a fucking awful idea

I agree with everything except limiting the amount requested. That seems arbitrary and would make the comm useless to people who need more than $100 (or whatever limit we would set), as emergencies often are more costly than that especially in the current economy. Imo the other requested changes would greatly improve the experience for both requestors and donators without setting a hard cap on how much someone can ask for.

IMO as someone who frequents the mutual_aid community when I can, we should not be policing posters there with respect to how much they've received or how much they can ask for. A consequence of this being an anonymous online community is that there's no way to know whether someone is being honest, and that is something we should just accept. Others have said this, and I agree with it: if you want to know you're helping someone who needs it, join a local org.

Potentially a limit to the number of posts could be helpful. However, I understand why people desperate for help would make posts in a short period of time. I would leave that one to people in the comm who need help.

Meta posts calling out other users feels too much like a witch hunt and I believe it's unproductive (for the reasons mentioned in paragraph 1). I feel like mods should handle grievances like that if we choose to handle it at all.

A posting limit might be okay but I don’t think we should limit amount asked.

Tracking would be nice

No need to change the name, it’s just semantics at that point.

No meta posts, if users have actual proof of scamming, they should submit it to the mods and admins.