this post was submitted on 20 Aug 2023
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the_dunk_tank

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It's the dunk tank.

This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.

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Nah I dislike you just as much. Was lincoln a tankie?

...
Fuck.

I really WAS looking forward to blocking you. AND you didn't give me a good reason not to. BUT,

the more I think about it, the more I find myself liking your question and feel myself WANTING to explore it.

At first, I asked myself if I could say "yeah, actually" but clearly THAT would be untrue - and not just for the reason that battle tanks weren't even invented yet at the time, but because even though lots of people hurl the word "tankie" around as a blanket insult with no real meaning, I'm instead actually honestly trying to mean something specific - It's not JUST killing your own people because they oppose you politically (using the figurative "you" here, not the literal you). It's the amount of intentional civilian casualties.

When people take up arms for a cause, they're self-selecting into the combat role, after all. Executing a planned, organized attack upon a government's assets is not a civilian behavior. It's either the behavior of an enemy (to said government) soldier or the behavior of a criminal. It's not innocent. The rebels in the American civil war were certainly not innocent bystanders.

What characterizes it would have to be the intentional and systematic slaughter of non-combatant civilians who were not engaging in battlefield maneuvers.

While this DID apparently happen in the American civil war, contributing to the civilian death toll of some 50,000 people, it was largely the actions of general Sherman, who unilaterally chose, regardless of actual orders, to burn entire cities.

I can't speak for you, obviously, but if a group exhibits all the behavioral phenomenon we presently associate with, say fascism, EVEN IF the actions and events concerned occurred before fascism was ever recognized or named, illuminating these behavioral facets by CALLING it "fascism" still possess communicative utility. Maybe meet half way and call it proto-fascism.

Likewise, if one were to call Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman's actions during the American Civil War "proto-tankie", I'd be hard pressed to honestly disagree with them.

When it comes to the defining incidents of the term, though - the Prague Spring - the "rebellion" didn't declare war, they merely elected someone the Soviets didn't like, and for that, 165,000 troops and just over 4,600 tanks were dispatched and nearly ALL the resulting casualties were civilians, even with the elected leader of the time telling the civilians NOT to resist for the sake of their safety. Thankfully the number of civilian casualties were relatively few, with less than a hundred murdered and only just over 250 severely wounded.

The other oft-cited incident, the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, actually featured armed insurgency and makes no distinctions clear enough regarding how many of the ~3,000 Hungarian casualties exactly were armed, organized, and mobilized, so I for one hold it in less critical a light than what Sherman did in the American Civil War.

When it comes to what Petro Poroshenko did in Ukraine, he actually admitted on video that he intended to make civilians suffer and fear for their lives, to make children cower in basements, in order to coerce compliance from them. Them, meaning, people who didn't even declare any intention to pick a fight with his administration in the first place! Punishing them for the "crime" of merely living in the same municipal area as alleged insurgents.

If you don't want to call it "tankie", fine.

But this IS a pattern of politically motivated state sponsored brutality that DOES recur throughout history and whatever you DO choose to call it deserves to be named, shamed, and blamed for giving Russia any justification whatsoever to "protect civilians" in the Donbas region by invading Ukraine.

In short, Lincoln wasn't a tankie, but Sherman may have been a proto-tankie.

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[–] Nightcastle@hexbear.net 24 points 1 year ago

Didn't read lol

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 24 points 1 year ago

When you slap someone for being rude to you, you're a tankie unless the person you slapped was a soldier

[–] halfpipe@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sherman? The guy who lead one of the greatest liberation forces in world history? That's who they have a problem with?

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[–] CthulhusIntern@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If Lincoln didn't like Sherman's actions, he could've stopped him.

[–] usernamesaredifficul@hexbear.net 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

to paraphrase Lincoln on Grant "I like him he fights" I don't think Lincoln wanted to stop Sherman I think he was desperate for a quick end to the war and would have cloned Sherman if he could have

[–] CthulhusIntern@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, exactly. To claim Lincoln is good but Sherman is bad is ahistorical. Maybe Lincoln didn't order Sherman to burn down southern cities, but he did allow it, and if you consider that bad, then you should consider Lincoln bad.

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[–] citrussy_capybara@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Flaps@hexbear.net 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Hahaha shit I was actually thinking about posting this as a copypasta. Even saw someone suggesting the conclusion of the essay could be a new tagline, which is what I had in mind. Thanks for taking the effort to post this fidel-salute

That being said, I'm actually happy someone took the time to share their views on what a tankie is, with such a post none the less. Like, I think they honestly believe stalin and Hitler were just two tankies duking it out. The term 'tankie' stays meaningless to me. Ive been called that in past few days and I've never flattened my political opponents with artillery

[–] citrussy_capybara@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago

Yes, I didn’t look at history before posting. There’s some good faith here and the user was in the .ee meta thread talking about liking hexbear. In that post it’s from user even read posted links and edited comments with updated views. This one has potential. Hope this is taken as ribbing and critique. Too funny to not share, and an interesting point of view. I’ve certainly posted cringe and had to be corrected before. Though not with this level of exposure.

and I've never flattened my political opponents with artillery

we should get some artillery

[–] happybadger@hexbear.net 22 points 1 year ago
[–] Nagarjuna@hexbear.net 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Is it time to fire up GIMP and make a tankie Sherman emoji?

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[–] JohnBrownsBussy2@hexbear.net 20 points 1 year ago

Sounds to me like Lincoln was a tankie.

[–] Elon_Musk@hexbear.net 15 points 1 year ago

They couldn't call it Catfish Lake. if it didn't have a catfish in it.

[–] Pandantic@midwest.social 14 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Okay, what is the working definition of Tankie right now? I get that this guy got it wrong, but how is this close?

[–] FuckYourselfEndless@hexbear.net 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] robot_dog_with_gun@hexbear.net 11 points 1 year ago

the same thing "woke" means when a fascist says it

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[–] PeoplesRepublicOfNewEngland@hexbear.net 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It's funny because when Sherman was my favorite historical figure I was a proto-tankie too

Sad he became a bit cringe later in his career

Edit: of course it's another lemm.ee poster

(note I am being very generous in the other thread, I'm implying World War 2 was also a based moment for the Failed States of America but really it dragged its feet and made the Soviet Union do most of the work, then finished in the cringest imaginable way. Really the Failed States had like 1.3 based moments and Sherman's march to the sea was an entire 1 of them)

[–] Grebgreb@hexbear.net 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] citrussy_capybara@hexbear.net 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

This is an example of not brigading, not spamming, and not arguing in bad faith so it’s unclear why this is used as an example.

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[–] cosecantphi@hexbear.net 8 points 1 year ago

c/the_dunk_tank: Exists for literally several years before most instances even split off from reddit-logo

Lemmyfront liberal: wow, this community exists solely to disrupt the new reddit-logo i'm trying to build

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