You're an electrified hunk of fat piloting a meat-covered skeleton riding on a damp rock that's hurling through space and time.
this post was submitted on 18 Dec 2024
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It's actually a lump of lava with a thin crust. Any time the crust breaks we have a very bad time.
Lava is just liquid rock
The core is metal, the outer shell is hard rock, i would assume what's inbetween is a mix of pop and smooth jazz maybe?
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Obligatory "um, akhtually, it's magma".
I enjoy Marcus Aurelius paraphrasing Epctetus...
"You are a little soul bearing about a corpse."
It's weird that we, as people, think that our being or self ends at our skin. And we're just a consciousness controlling a meat cube.
What about all the bacteria living on and inside of us? People would die without their microflora.
What about our subconscious/unconscious doings/thoughts? Are we in control of them? Or are they in control of us? Could consciousness be an illusion? One created by our senses' interpretation of external stimuli.
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I never understood this weird hangup, it's like people struggling to reconcile free will with deterministic actions to a being outside normal time. Of course you'll make the same choices if you rewound time and changed nothing... You're the same, the universe is the same down to the last particle - how does that conflict with the idea of agency?
Consciousness is an emergent property. One neuron is complex, but 1000 can do things one could never do alone. Why is it so surprising that billions, arranged in complex self organizing structures, would give rise to something more than the sum of its parts?
Maybe there's a quantum aspect to it, maybe there's not... It seems like it's all based in this idea humans are so extra special that surely there must be special laws of the universe just for us
To be honest the thing that confuses me is that I am conscious. That’s weird, how am I aware, there is no explanation of this. Assuming we pretty much understand all physics and science and there isn’t anything surprising around the corner. Consciousness has to be a physical thing, a computation. But that’s weird as hell too? What rule of the universe governs whether or not something is aware. A brain could do everything it does now without being really aware just pretending. And if that’s true does that mean it’s just the flow of information that can become conscious? Could anything become conscious? If I made a marble Rube Goldberg machine complicated it enough and doing the right calculations could it be conscious?? It feels wrong it feels like we are missing something
This is exactly what puzzles me. Or at least you seem to be talking about what puzzles me. The problem is that when I mention this to others, most missunderstand what I mean by "being aware" or "conscious", and im not sure its possible to refer to this phenomena in a much better way. But that is exactly the argument i usually make, that an automata could behave exactly like me, following the supposed physical laws, but without being aware, or having any sensation, without seeing the images, hearing the sounds, only processing sensorial data. Processing sensorial data isnt the same as feeling/hearing/seeing it.
I believe the academic label for your concern is the mind-body problem, or the hard problem of consciousness which specifically questions the gap in explanation between the physical process and the subjective experience. Going against the grain of the OP picture, this is definitely still firmly within the realms of philosophy, not at all a settled science.
This problem presupposes metaphysical realism, so you have to be a metaphysical realist to take the problem seriously. Metaphysical realism is a particular kind of indirect realism whereby you posit that everything we observe is in some sense not real, sometimes likened to a kind of "illusion" created by the mammalian brain (I've also seen people describe it as an "internal simulation"), called "consciousness" or sometimes "subjective experience" with the adjective "subjective" used to make it clear it is being interpreted as something unique to conscious subjects and not ontologically real.
If everything we observe is in some sense not reality, then "true" reality must by definition be independent of what we observe. If this is the case, then it opens up a whole bunch of confusing philosophical problems, as it would logically mean the entire universe is invisible/unobservable/nonexperiential, except in the precise configuration of matter in the human brain which somehow "gives rise to" this property of visibility/observability/experience. It seems difficult to explain this without just presupposing this property arbitrarily attaches itself to brains in a particular configuration, i.e. to treat it as strongly emergent, which is effectively just dualism, indeed the founder of the "hard problem of consciousness" is a self-described dualist.
This philosophical problem does not exist in direct realist schools of philosophy, however, such as Jocelyn Benoist's contextual realism, Carlo Rovelli's weak realism, or in Alexander Bogdanov's empiriomonism. It is solely a philosophical problem for metaphysical realists, because they begin by positing that there exists some fundamental gap between what we observe and "true" reality, then later have to figure out how to mend the gap. Direct realist philosophies never posit this gap in the first place and treat reality as precisely equivalent to what we observe it to be, so it simply does not posit the existence of "consciousness" and it would seem odd in a direct realist standpoint to even call experience "subjective."
The "hard problem" and the "mind-body problem" are the main reasons I consider myself a direct realist. I find that it is a completely insoluble contradiction at the heart of metaphysical realism, I don't think it even can be solved because you cannot posit a fundamental gap and then mend the gap later without contradicting yourself. There has to be no gap from the get-go. I see these "problems" as not things to be "solved," but just a proof-by-contradiction that metaphysical realism is incorrect. All the arguments against direct realism, on the other hand, are very weak and people who espouse them don't seem to give them much thought.
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Maybe there's a quantum aspect to it, maybe there's not...
I see what you did there, intentionally or not.
Heh. It was unintentional, next time it won't be
Yep. This was the issue people took with Chomsky's approach to language, basically the same sentiment. Humans are "special" in some way. It underlines the basis of almost all cognitive, neuroscience, and language research for decades.
It's crazy to me how much this holds us back, and the amount of cognitive dissonance involved
Take pets. We look at them acting shifty around the sock they know they aren't allowed to play with, and say "she's thinking about it". We avoid words like "walk" because they've understood one of the meanings of it. And usually not just the meaning, but the difference between tone and context - most won't react the same to "should we take her for a walk" and "is he able to walk". My mom's dog knew all of our names, and the difference between "soon", "tomorrow", and "the day after tomorrow" - she would watch the door all day on the right day
And yet, most people will share all of these observations and turn around to dismiss it as "she's just a dog". For them it's just association and behavioral conditioning, but the same things are different for humans because we're extra special. Clearly her acting shifty before stealing the sock isn't planning or considering, it's instincts fighting against training
But only humans can ever understand, only we make choices. Because we're extra special
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A CPU is just a rock we hit with magic lightning...
Calling it a lump of fat is a bit like calling the Milky Way a very sparse field of hydrogen
That's true tho
Right, but it doesn't capture the whole story, namely that it's arranged in a very particular way
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consciousness is stored in the balls
Next to the microplastic.
code "object-request-error"
msg 'Invalid status 503 Service Unavailable for Some("01/93/da/2e/55/b3/75/2a/84/1c/2ee79309c6b9.jpeg") - {"message":"failure to get a peer from the ring-balancer"}'
lmao so true
Sorry Natural Intelligence bros, but meat can't think. You've been duped into thinking human beings are conscious by Big Omega 3. Intelligence can only exist in computers using real electricity. Not that piddly ion pump stuff.
What about photons, hmmm? They're used for quantum computing and don't (technically) need "real electricity".
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Depends on what you mean by 'consciousness'. If you mean the actual biological process that is happening in our brains - yes. If you mean something different, it is probably not a scientific meaning but more a philosophical or religious one, which is ultimately not a bad thing but you should separate this from actual science.
We are ALL thinking lumps of fat on this blessed day :)
What if life's evolutionary end point is always sentience?
Then life is even more pointless and cruel than it appears.
That would be poetically fitting for an universe determined to die a heat death.
To my knowledge there are interesting quantum-mechanical effects at play as well though. There's a lot of esoterical nonsense around that of course, however first discoveries pointing into this direction are quite promising.
I always remember a quote from Alan Watts talking about this topic: "You are the universe experiencing itself". The idea of consciousness being an emerging property of the universe itself makes most sense to me, and the non-deterministic properties of quantum mechanics open this possibility.
Definitely more inspiring to think about it this way than just as a lump of fat.
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The brain is not a "lump of fat". If you desiccate the brain, most of what's left are lipids, yes, but at that point you are not conscious anymore. The brain is a mix of proteins, carbohydrates, water and fat.
A lump of mostly fat then? Seems needlessly specific.
I’M NOT FAT I’M JUST BIG BRAINED!!
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people don't like this idea because if that's all we are, then who is anyone to say that the inevitable equivalent man-made lump of fat with electrical activity isn't entitled to all the same rights and status that we are
also jeebus doesn't want you to think you can't go on getting punished even after you're dead
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Don't sell yourself short. It's a salty lump of fat.
Who said I'm salty, jerk?
Speak for yourself. I try not to think.
No, you're the electrochemical interactions happening inside the lump of fat.
"The material, sensuously perceptible world to which we ourselves belong is the only reality.... Our consciousness and thinking, however supra-sensuous they may seem, are the product of a material, bodily organ, the brain. Matter is not a product of mind, but mind itself is merely the highest product of matter." — Karl Marx
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