this post was submitted on 21 Dec 2024
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Like, in a practical sense? Do you have any stories or examples from your life?

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[–] Doubledee@hexbear.net 76 points 1 day ago

The way it has manifested most clearly in the situations I've encountered it is a basic difference in approach to writing and reading as concepts. They don't see writing or reading as a way to communicate, they see it as a puzzle they have to solve by following rules, so that they can return to communicating once the puzzle is out of the way. Unless they're in very casual/online settings, or very motivated to find specific information, they avoid the puzzle because it's annoying.

[–] FishLake@lemmygrad.ml 65 points 1 day ago (5 children)

I have dyslexia and legitimately didn’t learn how to read until I was about 13 years old. I mean, I got by on memorizing clusters of familiar looking phrases. Vibes-based reading. Oh and lots of cheating and lying about homework.

Two decades later, I still struggle compared to my peers. But I have had the privilege and luck to learn strategies to make up the difference.

I’m also an elementary school teacher. There’s only so hours I can try to teach my students to read. One of the biggest determining factors for reading ability/comprehension is how much vocabulary children are exposed to at an early age (0-4 years old). Reading to young children is crucial for language development, reading ability, and a slue of related skills. I don’t know enough about linguistics to know this for sure, but I’m assuming most of my students have parents with restricted vocabulary. And probably just not talked to enough as babies. Something just has to have affected their kids cognition in pernicious ways. Them getting COVID 8 or 9 times in their lives probably hasn’t helped either.

So the other week with my fifth graders we’re doing intro geometry stuff. I said something like, “A cylinder is just like the rectangular prism. It’s just that its base is a circle.” And like okay, I’ve been trying for half an hour trying to distill the absolute cluster fuck this caused in my students brains.

“It’s similar to this coffee mug. See? It has a circular base and it’s a prism. I know you’re thinking a prism has to look like the rectangular prism. It might be helpful to think of the cylinder as a circular prism.” I said, exasperated.

“What are you even saying?” a child asks rhetorically.

I eventually have to say something like, “Listen, if you can’t understand this it’s a skill issue and kinda cringe.” There’s a million little things that are hard to put into words how utterly dysfunctional some of these kids brains are and will be later in life.

Oh and I have to speak to these children’s parents on the reg, which is its own sort of hell.

[–] Taster_Of_Treats@hexbear.net 6 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (2 children)

Maybe show them how you can project a line segment perpendicular to its direction to make a rectangle, then show how you can project a square into a rectangular prism. A visual could help.

Can you use the Microsoft Office graph function? I think they can show bar graphs as a 3D cylinder/rectangular prism.

[–] FishLake@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 18 hours ago

Great suggestions, thanks.

[–] SkingradGuard@hexbear.net 3 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Why not use a 3d model viewer or something like tinkercad

[–] Taster_Of_Treats@hexbear.net 2 points 18 hours ago

I thought that would be ideal, but teachers are busy and I don't know if op has the time to learn it.

[–] Evilsandwichman@hexbear.net 20 points 1 day ago

Tell them prisms are where bad guys go; if they ran a prism, do they want their prismers to be in a cylindrical cell or a rectangular one?

[–] theturtlemoves@hexbear.net 29 points 1 day ago (2 children)

To be fair, at least personally, I learned the word 'cylinder' long before I learned 'rectangular prism'. Maybe because the latter is usually called a cuboid or box, while there is no simpler word for a cylinder.

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[–] duderium@hexbear.net 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

What’s it like talking with their parents?

[–] Evilsandwichman@hexbear.net 5 points 22 hours ago

Probably like talking to the trolls from the hobbit

[–] iheartneopets@lemm.ee 8 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Tbh you also about lost me when you started taking about rectangular prisms, too, and I'm a 30-year-old former voracious reader. So. Maybe take it a lil easier on them, and come up with simpler verbiage when introducing new concepts?

[–] Frivolous_Beatnik@hexbear.net 13 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think there is a significant difference in two skill affinities at play here. Vocabulary and spatial visualization are both important to solidifying geometry skills but some people just tend to have a lot of difficulty projecting 3-dimensional shapes in their minds, whether or not the words to describe the concepts are in their lexicon.

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[–] Flocklesscrow@lemm.ee 6 points 1 day ago

Avoid prism at all costs

[–] happybadger@hexbear.net 65 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I had a roommate who grew up in a poor farming community. He has dyslexia but the school had no special education funding to address that. As a result he grew up completely illiterate and stayed that way into his 30s. He passively absorbed libertarian ideas from the media he consumed, but lacked the ability to cross-check any of it. I remember him giving me a history lesson from a Call of Duty game.

[–] FishLake@lemmygrad.ml 40 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Jesus I’m so fucking glad that didn’t happen to me.

[–] happybadger@hexbear.net 37 points 1 day ago

I can talk humanities and social sciences at a graduate level and am comfortable with the physical side of trauma medicine, but STEM subjects are really difficult for me for more or less the same reason. Shitty public/Catholic schooling meant I effectively lost out on a meaningful primary and secondary science and mathematics education. Now I'm a scientific horticulturist because I thought horticulture was a fake science that I could sneak my way into because I'm decent with plants. It isn't though. Outside of ecology, it's the ultimate interdisciplinary physical science. I've had to learn mathematics through analytical trigonometry and calculus but even basic algebra barely makes sense to me. Chemistry and physics are totally lost on me. I spent those preteen/teenage years building an intuitive knowledge base for the subjects that interest me but I feel the effects of an underfunded public school with any kind of super technical field that I never had childhood exposure to. It fundamentally doesn't click.

[–] GrosMichel@hexbear.net 68 points 1 day ago (4 children)

That clip of that Kik Streamer fascist Aiden Ross trying to whole-word-read "fascist" and then googling the meaning and then still being puzzled why someone would call Trump that.

[–] CthulhusIntern@hexbear.net 55 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Once, Andrew Tate asked him questions about World War II. I could maybe forgive someone for not knowing that de Gaulle was the leader of France, but the only leader of the major Allies/Axis Powers he knew was Hitler. When asked who the leader of Russia was, he said "I'm guessing Putin's father or grandfather".

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 40 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Putin's grandpa, Spiridon Ivanovich Putin, was Lenin's and Stalin's cook for some time, an we all know cooks really rule the world.

[–] RNAi@hexbear.net 29 points 1 day ago
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[–] SuperZutsuki@hexbear.net 47 points 1 day ago

When I first saw this, I laughed my ass off and then cried because this motherfucker is an idol to so many people.

[–] PointAndClique@hexbear.net 51 points 1 day ago

Kik Streamer

tory

[–] Coolkidbozzy@hexbear.net 68 points 1 day ago

It means they are easily propagandized to and won't have the critical reading skills to realize it

[–] SuperZutsuki@hexbear.net 49 points 1 day ago (2 children)

They can sound out words and know what most common words mean in isolation but their ability comprehend the meaning of a text is very basic, if present at all. Reading a short story, being able to summarize it and comment on themes, conflicts, character motivations, metaphors, allegory, how they relate to the story or certain characters are generally beyond them. Reading a political article and reading between the lines to get past the writer's bias is completely beyond them (tbf they would never read an article, they would watch a video or look at memes on facebook). That said, they have little to no ability to think critically so whatever authority figures beat into them when they were young becomes their worldview and everything that contradicts it is seen as an attack on them and society.

[–] Doubledee@hexbear.net 50 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I had someone I know ask me what was wrong with the Korean PM declaring martial law since he was doing it because of a communist invasion. The article just repeated what he claimed he was doing and this guy hadn't thought about whether that was an accurate statement on his part. Just didn't occur to him that an official statement from a politician could be false.

He's not coincidentally a huge Chud with a lot of beliefs about a (((cabal))) running everything he doesn't like.

[–] SuperZutsuki@hexbear.net 37 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I legit think the only way to save these people is to very carefully word socialist theory in a way that they can understand through facebook level memes. But then you have to worry about the authority figures that actually can read seeing through it. curious-marx I don't know that re-education is actually possible in this case, tbh.

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[–] Beaver@hexbear.net 49 points 1 day ago

It means they have a difficult time parsing Parenti quotes. They can read it aloud, and they can tell you roughly what it's about, but they have difficulty following and comprehending the argument being made.

[–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 36 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Reading at a 6th grade level is reading for plot. Just like, what happened? Who was there? More advanced things like subtext, metaphor, and unreliable narrators come later.

I found this online the last time this topic came up: https://www.oxfordonlineenglish.com/english-level-test/reading

Go ahead and read the story, and imagine that a lot of people cannot read and understand it.

There's also this article about how many kids are taught to read badly: https://features.apmreports.org/sold-a-story/ (amusingly, also available as a podcast)

What does it mean practically? Bad things. If you haven't read 1984, give it a go and think about why the authoritarian state benefitted from a diminished language.

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 39 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

so lets go a bit more in depths on the topic, what other lessons did you get out of 1984?

[–] Vingst@hexbear.net 38 points 1 day ago

what other lessons did you get out of 1984?

that i should sport a mustache if i want to be taken seriously

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[–] blame@hexbear.net 23 points 1 day ago (1 children)

their site design is knocking my reading level down a couple grades

[–] buckykat@hexbear.net 24 points 1 day ago

Not GDPR compliant, the disagree button just says fuck you you must agree to our cookies to read this plain text

[–] Vingst@hexbear.net 16 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I don't know how that test compares to grade level. It seems like a test to determine one's CEFR level, 20 correct answers out 20 gave me C1. It doesn't really say what it's based on, but it does encourage you to buy their product.

Ok actually, this seems to suggest B2/C1 is about 6-8th grade level and C1 is 9-12: https://wida.wisc.edu/news/wida-model-online-scale-scores-linked-common-european-framework-reference-cefr

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[–] Robert_Kennedy_Jr@hexbear.net 51 points 1 day ago

My mom once stated in a FB post that socialism was evil, when I asked her to elucidate "It just is!"

[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 40 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

"I used ChatGPT Bazinga to write this message"

Sometimes you have to be brought back to reality and realize that the vast, vast majority of USAmericans have not grappled with materialism, thus nearly all the connections they make are like a 6th grader writing out their 5 paragraph essay for the high stakes exam that determines if their school gets funding or not.

US self made brain drain is going to hit the country like a comically large boomerang, it already has essentially.

[–] SuperZutsuki@hexbear.net 33 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yeah, even if a person gets an undergrad degree they still have the capitalist brainworms unless they poison them with theory. Reading and writing education in the US is so formulaic as to be worthless. People are taught to follow a small set of rules and if they don't follow the rules, they fail. They are not expected to think. Even so, many people refuse to read or write anything, either paying others to do it for them or just turning in some AI slop without taking a single look at it.

[–] MayoPete@hexbear.net 19 points 1 day ago

And these people are armed to the teeth yikes-3

[–] RNAi@hexbear.net 15 points 1 day ago (2 children)

brain drain is going to hit the country like a comically large boomerang,

To where?

[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 3 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

juche-rose

Slightly more seriously, the people who can actually do things will go to countries where they can actually do them. The US ripping the copper wire out of everything will reverse any sort of intellectual dominance that it once had.

[–] Riffraffintheroom@hexbear.net 17 points 1 day ago (1 children)

How has it or will it impact the US? With America’s money can’t they just attract immigrant intellectual labour with high salaries?

[–] SuperZutsuki@hexbear.net 7 points 23 hours ago

Yes and no. We used to actively court immigrant intellectuals, now we're accusing every Chinese intellectual of espionage and frothing at the mouth to deport anyone darker than freshly fallen snow. People with advanced degrees see what's happening in the US and are choosing to go elsewhere.

[–] InevitableSwing@hexbear.net 29 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Do you have any stories or examples from your life?

A middle school textbook is pretty basic stuff. Think of all problems, blunder, mistakes, accidents, etc happening all over the US every day that are caused by the average American having difficulty understanding anything written at a middle school level or above.

With the rise of the internet along with it's dark side and the expansion of right-wing media - maybe it was enviable that a repulsive republican like Trump would be president not just once but twice. And maybe it's no surprise that huge number of Americans fall prey to conspiracy theories and snake oil salesmen like RFK. A large percentage of Americans hate vaccines and think they cause disease.

My worry is that not only will the problem not get fixed - it will most likely get worse over time. There is a concerted, bipartisan effort to ignore the problem. The GOP likes an uneducated public. Trump even bragged about it. The democrats will remain unwilling to even acknowledge the problem because they think the public will lose faith in American exceptionalism, the American dream, etc.

[–] CDommunist@hexbear.net 11 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Trump even bragged about it

What did Trump say?

[–] carpoftruth@hexbear.net 26 points 1 day ago

I find the OECD's levels of literacy more instructive than grade level. This page has a short definition: https://literacytrust.org.uk/parents-and-families/adult-literacy/what-do-adult-literacy-levels-mean/

pdf page 75 (table 4.5) here has more detailed definitions: https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/publications/reports/2019/11/the-survey-of-adult-skills_d7f1bc16/f70238c7-en.pdf

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