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Imagine being afraid of the ‘friend zone’
(hexbear.net)
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this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2023
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chapotraphouse
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Yeah the whole incel thing has really poisoned the well on a legitimate issue like this. It's kind of funny how some leftists will talk about context when it comes to the faults of former AES states but on other issues (especially ones like this, i.e. dating) they completely ignore context and sound like your average lib. Oh well I guess we all have to continue to grow.
I mean it works out for some people I suppose (for ex UlyssessT in this thread) but yeah I think remaining friends while still holding out hope is disingenuous.
I think it's both. Just like any other issue that socialists talk about, like racism, sexism, classism, etc. They can all be "dealt with" on an interpersonal level, but ultimately there needs to be a societal change.
what societal change do you think needs to occur about this issue?
Probably making it so boys and men have emotional support other than their partner or therapist and generally teaching them not to treat relationships as status signifiers or commodities. Unfortunately, that probably has to start young and we already have a bunch of shitty men floating around
ugh well put & good post.
One of the examples I remember is from r4r or one of the nerd dating spheres where someone wanted a partner who was smart, but not as smart as them. Obviously, they wanted her to smart enough to impress their friends (the ones who they constantly jockey for clout about intelligence with), but didn't really want to respect her or feel intellectually threatened. Which also says a lot about what they think of their friends, let alone their prospective partner they were looking for.
Yet again, something that can quickly and easily fixed by breaking down the umbrella concept of "smart" into categories, where you can have distinction in one or a few or even several, and still easily have space for someone else close to you to have their own combination/niche.
The same goes with power/authority. Break it down into its component parts, and all of a sudden stratification is drastically minimized.
Well the problem is that relationships aren't status signifiers. They are status, in the most concrete way possible.
Edit: Like it's an old truism, that certain kinds of guys will deliberately pursue making money more than actually trying to build their social skills directly because it can open more doors for you socially & "romantically".
Edit 2: What I'm getting at here is that "status" is an inherently social concept. It has to do with the people who you interact with on a day-to-day basis, & what you can expect from your interactions with them. In this sense, yes, somebody who doesn't have a lot of friends or any romantic partners, is objectively socially inferior to somebody who does. They are, by definition, valued less by the the people around them & are less socially integrated, as a consequence of that. And that itself will usually be the consequence of the person in question possessing some quality that is considered inferior by the society they live in.
The whole issue I think is something that just isn't really well addressed by any contemporary discussion on the matter, I think.
Maybe reverse the trend of turning dating into a commodified market for one. Apps like Tinder have really made looks be the sole factor in whether you even want to talk to someone. It's become so gamified that we essentially treat potential partners as some kind of stock investment. Also the digital world has really isolated us and we rarely even talk to people anymore except through text or instagram. I think electronic communication is great (I mean here I am commenting on hexbear) but not at the expense of real life contact (hence the "touch grass" meme). Maybe have community centers that actually appeal to people? I dunno, perhaps we need to look at what the Soviets and other cultures do to help people meet each other (https://youtu.be/teZw4-trPuE?feature=shared).
I actually agree with most of the above while at the same time I see the "being friends with someone that is otherwise not romantically interested is bad/impossible" take as being the equivalent of throwing dirt into the rejection wound. Maybe a friendship is impossible for an individual but systemically assuming it is only makes the dating scene a little bit worse by making it more antagonistic.
IMO, I think it's worthwhile for society to take an active interest in helping integrate kids & young people who are lagging behind socially. There are programs that claim to try to do this today, but I didn't really ever get any help, I just got told what to do & that I'd go in a windowless box if I didn't do that.
If you get to be 30 & you're still in that position, like I am idk how much there is that can be done, because a lot of the contributing factors to the issue have become ossified/terminal.
Socialization is very much a "rich get richer, poor get poorer" (if you'll excuse the analogy) situation, in my experience.
I agree here specifically because the "holding out hope" part is, both for the friendship and for the person maintaining that hope instead of accepting the friendship, or moving on without the friendship if they can't, which is also preferable to "holding out hope."
Accept the friendship if you can, earnestly work toward accepting the friendship if you're not all the way there, or move on. Those are the best choices.