It's dogshit
Hamas and Israeli hardliners are two sides of the same coin. The choice is not one hardline faction or the other; it is between fundamentalists and all those who still believe in the possibility of peaceful co-existence. There can be no compromise between Palestinian and Israeli extremists, who must be combatted with a full-throated defense of Palestinian rights that goes hand-in-hand with an unwavering commitment to the fight against anti-Semitism.
Utopian as this may sound, the two struggles are of a piece. We can and should unconditionally support Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied territories. Those who think there is a “contradiction” in this position are the ones who are effectively blocking a solution.
We can and should unconditionally defend US slave owners' property rights. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by enslaved people.
We can and should unconditionally support Nazi Germany's right to rid itself of undesirables. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by those placed in concentration camps.
Feel free to add your own
Yes, but there has always be a minority in the region, 5% of the population or less, but this gets complicated as generations go on. If the dad's family has been there for a millenia, but mom came over from Germany, what does that make you? How far back does that have to go?
I don't think that is a morally abhorrent suggestion, but that does verge on ethnic cleansing. Obviously they aren't entitled to land taken from Palestinians, but uprooting them again should be avoided if at all possible.
I think I large bit of the problem comes from this fluid notion of settler. Someone who moved to Israel and legitimately bought land in 1880 under the Ottoman empire (a multiethnic state) weren't necessarily doing anything too objectionable, but as successive waves came in and started actively and violently displacing Palestinians, their claim to the land becomes much less defensible, and further still, the ones actively engaged in displacement right now in the West Bank despite being told that it's illegal; which is the traditional meaning of 'settler' in the Palestine/Israel context are even more abhorrent.
I think everyone agrees that there's no concern of ethnic cleansing in the final case, but as settler is construed more and more broadly to refer to essentially Jewish family that wasn't there in 1800 the concern for ethnic cleansing rises.
And just a minor quibble, the indigenous of Haiti didn't kick the french out of Haiti; the Taino people were essentially whipped out in that colony and played no role in the uprising and expulsion.
If the person joined the IDF and supports the state of instreal, they are a settler and need to leave. If they don't then they are Palestinian.
There are no roots on stolen land. Isntreali settlers murder people so they can steal their homes. The land they live on is not theirs. Very simple.
Then that person is a Palestinian. "Israel" is a modern invention. Their house was probably bulldozed by the IDF.
I don't think anyone is ontologically conflating "isntreali settler" with "Jew" except the isntreali and American propaganda departments so they can make the claim that "muh anti Israel is anti semitism." Anyone of any race or religion can be a settler if they murder people in other lands to ethnically cleanse them and steal their homes.
I think it's a very, very simple matter of a person having no right to live in a house they stole after killing the family who lived there.
Israel has conscription, which I presume you know, so we're essentially back to they all have to leave, including the descendants of the indigenous Jewish population that have been there for a millennia, which, is fact, the ethnic cleansing you were walking back a second ago.
That's not how they identify, and in reality their grand-children probably serve in the IDF.
I mean, your definition of settler as "IDF service member", taken in conjuction with Israeli law
Would seem to map, in large part, to the same extension even if the intensions are in fact different.
Like I don't think you're actually anti-semitic or want the entire Jewish population kicked out, you're just not treating this as the difficult problem it is and spitballing solutions that just happen to essentially result in all the jews being kicked out.
I think thats a very bad faith reading of what I wrote because you're focusing on some technicality about IDF conscription instead of the fact of the matter that if you steal someone's home and kill half their family, you have no claim to it and need to leave.
I don't care whether they are Jews, Christians, Druze, etc. the fact remains is that those living in Isntreal, land recently stolen, have committed a heinous crime against humanity and need to give it back. How they go about doing so and where they go is not my problem, its up to isntreal and the western governments who prop it up to decide because they are the aggressors who have committed a genocide and stolen land, in this situation. Saying that "oh but they have to stay and continue to benefit from the homes they have stolen without giving anything back because muh TINA" is the same flavor of cope as "oh but capitalism needs to kill over 10 million people each year and destroy humanity because muh TINA".
What part about that is so difficult to understand?
Also
is probably a trivial portion of the population, because if we take a look at population statistics: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/population-of-israel-1948-present
We can observe that 1) This is an artificially inflated population driven by settler colonialism, most of these people haven't lived there for 4 generations (~80 years) let alone a millennia & 2) Records literally start from 1948, Israel Isntreal.
Moreover, are you literally saying that the land presently colored in green in the image below is owned by the "indigenous peoples" who lived there for "millennia"?
Look if you're going to suggest a policy for removal, I don't know how I'm supposed to evaluate that if not literally.
Some of them have, some of them haven't. Some Israelis have been living there for millennial, even more from 1880 on during the first wave of legal, nonviolent immigration, and they and there descendants have pretty much totally fair claim to that land. They don't have claim to Israel as a religious ethnostate political entity like it currently exists, but if you insist that all Israeli must leave because Israel as a political entity has committed crimes against humanity (which it has), you're doing ethnic cleansing of individuals, some of which had nothing to do with those crimes and are in fact indigenous to the area.
The difficult part to understand is that you shift seamlessly from insisting all the Israelis have to leave (like I quoted above), to insisting you only mean some of them, the non-indigenous ones have to leave, without having any workable way of demarcating it. Your first criteria (IDF service) literally corresponds to essentially all Jews by law, even indigenous ones.
Records and estimates of the Jewish population of the region date back to before 1948 I was looking at them earlier.
No. I'm claiming that a small subset of that land, and probably even small amounts of yellow land, were privately owned by Jewish families whose descendants are currently in Israel and identify as Israeli. If your end goal for Palestine doesn't include the option of peaceful coexistence for those people as a protected minority, then you're calling for an ethnic cleansing. Which I don't think you are, but you keep stumbling awfully close to it accidentally by pretending this problem, is "like, actually, super simple when you think about it."
I don't know how you look at: "if you steal someone's home and kill half their family, you have no claim to it and need to leave" as: "omg this is advocating a policy of ethnic removal". They are the ones who did the removal.
My son, Isntreal came to being in 1948. There is no "living there for millennia" because there wasn't a "there" to begin with, it always was and will continue to be Palestine first and foremost. "Israeli" is also a bullshit nationality for the same reason.
Fair claim to their ancestral homes as reformed honorary Palestinians in small villages here and there? Yes. The entirety of Palestine? No.
Yeah if you strongly identify as an Isntreali, even after having a proper historical education, you need to be leave because Isntreal is a fascist settler colonial state and you're probably living on the rubble of someone's destroyed home. If you identify as Palestinian (which a minority of people who live in Isntreal do btw) then you still need to give back the stolen land. Not individually ofc this has to be done on a sociological scale but again, its not my problem to determine the specifics how this will happen. Because the bottom line is that the genocide and theft that occurred on that land needs to be addressed and atoned for somehow. Do you understand?
Please refer to the population statistics again:
Most isntrealis are not indigenous to the region, they are settler colonial imports who live on stolen land to further the west's colonial ambitions in the region. It isn't just "some", its "most".
If you live on green land where the land was once yellow , on the rubble of someone's home, you need to give back what was stolen and leave. Very straightforwards! If you have stolen someone's home in a fascist project of ethnic cleansing, you need to give it back!
How can you look at this map and seriously claim that "oh ackshually its ethnic cleansing if you want the people living on recently occupied land to give it back because somehow the map has magically been green for 1000000 gorillion years."
There is no "peaceful coexistence" if you're a fascist living on top of someone's destroyed home saying that its akshually yours because "muh 1000 billion year old ancestry". For the fraction of a fraction of "isntrealis" you describe who are living in "isntreal" in their ancestral homes which are not built on the remains of bulldozed homes, yes, they don't need to leave. But the vast majority should really, really give back what they stole and fuck off elsewhere! They are the ones who have been performing a genocidal campaign of ethnic cleansing for the past 80 years. Please do NOT conflate saying they should stop, give back what they stole, and leave with "removal".
From what I gather you took the hyperbole of "all Isntrealis must go" too literally because the "all" would include the tiny minority of "Israelis" who are actually living in their ancestral homes in occupied Palestine and happen to identify as "Israeli". Those bastards need harsh re-education for daring to identify with a fascist ethnostate but ofc they can stay in Palestine because its their home too. However, the vast majority are settler colonial imports from the past ~80 or so years who live on stolen land, therefore, they need to give back what they stole and leave, maybe for that one Russian province that is majority Jewish.
From the statistics I cited, about 8% of households in Jerusalem were Jewish in the 1800s. We're not talking about infinitesimals here. So yeah, when you say "all Israelis have to go", it sounds like you mean them too. I'm glad you don't, but you don't have to act so put out about being asked to clarify that you don't actually mean the ethnic cleansing that you may have accidentally, literally called for.
Ok ik this is 3 days later but this is important to point out that this is a mistaken conflation between Isntreal as a state and the religion of Judaism. Because if 8% of households were Jewish in Palestine in the 1800 that still makes them Palestinian, not isntreali by any means. If they identify as "Israeli" then they need to be reducated, or kicked out, like how Nazis are kicked out of Germany. In fact, NATOpedia says that some potential IDF soldiers actually refuse service because they don't want to evict these Jewish households. Israel itself is doing an antisemitic project of settler colonialism. "All Israelis out" means all settlers and Zionists, Judaism does not factor into this statement. It only sounds like it when processed with the western liberal mainstream media framework that falsely equates "Israeli" with "Jewish".
"Israeli" itself isn't an ethnicity, just like how "Nazi" isn't. It's fascist blood and soil rhetoric to claim isntreali is an actual proper ethnicity and not an ingroup marker for a genocidal project of ethnic cleansing.
I'm not conflating them, I know they're distinct. The fact remains that the vast majority of the Jewish population of the Levant is Israeli, has Israeli citizenship, and identifies as Israeli. That's the reality on the ground, and you pretending to exclude certain components of the Israeli population from your claim on the basis of "actually there is no such thing as an Israeli" means off you're using a silly linguistic prescriptivism shared by essentially no one.
Look I know you don't want to commit ethnic cleansing, but this argument for why you werent accidentally calling for that in the first place relies on everyone using your ad hoc definition of Israeli in stark contrast to ifs general usage. That's why mods removed your post. Because the common language understanding of it was a call for ethnic cleansing even though you don't mean that.
so youre saying:
A: >Most Israelis are Jewish.
B: >Its ethnic cleansing to expel Jewish people from a land.
Therefore:
C: >If you say you want all Israelis to leave, this means you want Jews to leave, which means you are doing Jewish expulsion ergo ethnic cleansing.
This is a silly argument, because its literally like saying.
Therefore:
To transpose point B to C would imply that people calling for the removal of Isntealis on here do so because Isntrealis are majority Jewish. This is false, because the truth is that we want them to go because they are settlers, first and foremost, who have stolen land in a fascist project of ethnic cleansing and conquest. Them being there is actively harmful to the local population, so they must go.
Being Jewish doesn't give you the privilege to harm others and commit crimes against humanity without repercussions.
By claiming that isntrealis have a right to stay in the lands they conquered because they are jewish and telling them to leave is "muh ethnic cleansing", you're weaponizing the trauma and discrimination that the Jewish people faced for centuries to protect the carrying out of a genocide.
If you go to another country far away, steal someone's home and torture the survivors, you need to at the very least give the home back and leave.
It is not "antisemetism" to say that people have the right to defend their homeland from a violent fascist occupying force that only seeks to slowly kill them in an inhumane open air concentration camp.
It is not advocacy for ethnic cleansing to say that genocidal settlers who stole land must fuck off and give it back.
You don't seem to understand how fucking evil isntreal is as a settler colonial project. Its a fascist cancer on the earth, like hitler's germany, biden's america, victoria's UK or pinochet's chile. In fact many Jewish people in the west also call for the removal of isntreal, and the leaving of everyone who supports it, does that make them advocates for ethnic cleansing against Jews?
I don't care whether or not the mods removed my comment either. It doesn't prove anything, they are human and thus have imperfect judgement sometimes, I do not question their authority on this site and appreciate their efforts, but neither do I think of them as the final arbiters of right and wrong.
The fact still remains that saying "all Israelis must go" is not a call to ethnic cleansing, its a call for the dissolving of a fascist settler colonial project.
Nope, you're commiting something analogous to the converse error in trying to understand my position here. My argument would hold even if 2% of Israelis were jewsih.
No it didn't because your original objection was:
To my comment that "they all should leave their bloody ethnostate built on stolen land".
And we proved that this doesn't make sense because:
The overwhelming majority of isntrealis are settler colonial imports "displaced" by the west as an invading force to live on land that they stole illegally in a campaign of systematic eradication against the indigenous population. If you steal someone's home and kill half their family, you need to fucking leave and return what you stole to the survivors, no matter where you came from originally. Things are, in fact, this black and white here. Do you deny that isntrealis live on stolen land while they keep the original occupants, who they removed, in an open air concentration camp?
Being Jewish doesn't somehow make it ok to perform human rights violations on a mass scale and squat in stolen land in a country you invaded, using the history of Judaism as a persecuted group to justify the wests genocidal occupation of stolen land.
Identifying as "Israeli" is just as fucked as identifying with any other fascist colonial project. Anyone who unironically does should be treated accordingly.
Telling genocidal settlers to fuck off is not "muh ethnic cleansing advocacy" in any context.
It's basically ignoring the main point that the land is stolen in the most visceral, literal sense, physically stolen, and thus must be returned by kicking out the invaders. It isn't that the original inhabitants suddenly started identifying as isntreali in large numbers in a coup situation, its an invasion from the outside by a settler colonial power structure. Therefore, the invaders must be returned to the outside.
Here are two facts.
All Jewish Residents of the area are Israeli citizens and identify as Israeli, indigenous (a minority) and settler alike. (You committed the converse error in thinking I was talking about most Israelis being jewish; this is logically non-equivalent).
Your argument is that all Israelis must go.
Therefore, you think all Jewish residents of the area must go?
I know you don't think but that is what you said originally and what you continue to say, and your ad hoc redefinition of the indigenous Jewish population as Palestinian in contradiction of their identity and citizenship in order to avoid owning up to the plain-language interpretation of your statement is textbook special pleading. If you would just specify that the descendants of the indigenous Jewish population and expelled jews could stay, or just all settlers must go, we could dodge this issue entirely. As it was, you original statement literally caused upset among jewish users here because they took you to mean "get rid of all the jews", because all the jews there are Israeli.
This is wrong because there are Jewish people who live on the West Bank and in Gaza. Some settlers defect from the IDF because they don't want to evict them from their homes.
Yeah all enthusiastic citizens of the fascist non state should be kicked out.
Notice how I said "Israelis" and not "Jews"?
"B-B-BUT they all happen to be Jewish!?!??"
Being Jewish doesn't mean you can commit crimes against humanity and steal land without having to give it back and leave. If you're isntreali you are a fascist settler before anything else. And should be treated like one.
And this is literally like saying:
Yeah because I don't care what religion you are. If youre a fascist psycho who is happily committing a genocide in my village, you need to die.
Similarly, if you are isntreali, living in a fascist ethnostate built on stolen land, then you need to leave. I don't care what religion you are, it won't change the fact that the land you live on isn't yours, and you need to give it back.
I shouldn't need to specify "all isntrealis but not X% of the population because they are living in their own ancestral homes" because its common understanding around the world that the word "Israeli" means "settler" and "invader", except to gormless westerners who watch mainstream mass media. It's ceding ground to liberal sensibilities, id fucking do it for the media but not for some idiot libs on our Kurdish bearposting site.
Literally like the right wing types who say "oh not all men bro not all men youre wrong bro".
In fact I'm coming to the conclusion that even the 1% "indigenous" population who identifies as "isntreali" should be kicked out for supporting a genocide of their former countrymen.
Is there a private group chat which I'm not invited to or...? Because it's just you who is seething, and white I'm guessing?
There was another thread where a Jewish user specifically confirmed your post was one of the ones that gave them ethnic cleansing concerns. Which is why it was removed. I didn't report it. Seriously, all you have to say is "cheers, I'll be more careful in the future to try not to upset people about ethnic cleansing", but you just absolutely can't admit to have caused the slightest amount of discomfort for some freaking reason.
And yet
Talking to you is like talking to a wall.
Yeah if men as a class had a history of pogroms and ethnic cleansing and industrial mass murder this analogy would be cogent.
I know there are jewish people in the West Bank; tons of them live in illegal settlements. There don't seem to be any indications of Jewish people living in gaza, beyond perhaps a literal handful, under 100 and certainly under 1000. Israeli forces apparently evicted all of them in 2005 as part of peace talks.
Link to the thread if you're going to make accusations like this. It's still their problem for identifying in any way with the residents of a fascist state.
No I'm not going to walk back my statement because of genocide apologia concern trolling thanks. I gladly admit when I said something fucked on this site, this situation is not one of those times. I'm not apologizing for the shitty liberal understandings of other people because some cracker cries liberal crocodile tears about "muh ethnic cleansing".
IDGAF man the hundreds of thousands of people worldwide currently protesting beg to differ. Palestinians and the vast majority of people on this site don't recognize isntreal as a state and that's enough for me. Nothing will change the fact that it's a settler colonial fascist project of ethnic cleansing. Are you seriously going to deny that because CNN told you otherwise?
I'm not the one concern trolling for isntreal. You haven't responded to the points I laid out in any capacity.
Notice how you're conflating "Israeli" with "Jewish" again. What you describe is literally the history of Isntreal, commiting pogroms, ethnic cleansing, and industrial mass murder against Palestinians. Isntreal has never had a history of human rights abuses committed against it.
"B-B-BUT they're mostly Jewish!!!!"
Again, being Jewish doesn't give you the privilege of killing innocent people in a campaign of genocide while weaponizing a history of persecution to deflect criticism.
And thus it is possible to say "all Isntrealis must fuck off" because, the truth is, isntreal is a fascist settler colonial genocide machine before anything else.
It's like that comedian said on TV, you guys think you're superman but in reality you're homelander.
Isntreal itself is one giant illegal settlement thank you very much. I was referring to indigenous arab Jews.
It's pretty obvious that you're a cracker given how much you fail to acknowledge the evil of a genocide when committed against brown people and instead read statements decrying the genocider in the worst faith possible.