This is the typical throwaway line used by liberals when it's pointed out that Israel should stop doing war crimes, but I'm not sure what it's trying to convey.

Rights are always a tricky abstraction, doubly so at the international level, so I'm not sure what asserting the existence of some right is supposed to do. Israel obviously has the capability to defend itself^1^, so what good is asserting some intangible right to do so? Are they actually saying "We should not stop Israel from doing what it wants to defend itself"? I imagine even they would object to Israel use of sarin or nuclear weapons, so I don't think that's what they mean. Is it "Israel should be given wide but not unlimited latitude by the US to respond as it sees fit"? Cause if that's what they mean, the easy answer is "not with our tax dollars".

Anyway this just seems like one of those empty pat expressions used during arguments I hate.

When they aren't busy doing racialist dismissiveness of Palestinian military capability.

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[–] a_blanqui_slate@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A state can use force in self-defense against another state or entity, but this is NOT a right, because there are limits and conditions enforced by international law*, and rights are meant to be inalienable and unconditional. You as a person can't be prevented from drinking water, but a state CAN be prevented from retaliating if they're not doing it in the right way.

But, as we see in the case of Palestine right now, people can be prevented from drinking water. It my be inalienable in a normative sense, but this whole conflict is replete with examples if Israel withholding the rights of Palestinians.

Conversely, Israel can't be prevented from retaliating. Right or not, they are going to retaliate anyway, and the international communities willingness to accept it seems to only be weakly tied to how egregious their retaliation seem to be. I guess the realist perspective you allude to is what I am getting at here, so the statement "Israel has a right to defend itself" seems to be doing a rhetorical slight of hand between factual and normative statements.

[–] RION@hexbear.net 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You're right, I slipped up in my phrasing there and have edited it to make things slightly clearer. Part of what makes discussing this so difficult is the incredible breadth of difference between what is mandated by international law and what really happens in practice.

[–] a_blanqui_slate@hexbear.net 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Didn't mean to imply you had slipped. I actually found your reply quite helpful in organizing my thoughts.

[–] RION@hexbear.net 2 points 1 year ago

Nah my phrasing could have used some work regardless. Glad it was helpful though!