this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2023
114 points (100.0% liked)

History

23106 readers
36 users here now

Welcome to c/history! History is written by the posters.

c/history is a comm for discussion about history so feel free to talk and post about articles, books, videos, events or historical figures you find interesting

Please read the Hexbear Code of Conduct and remember...we're all comrades here.

Do not post reactionary or imperialist takes (criticism is fine, but don't pull nonsense from whatever chud author is out there).

When sharing historical facts, remember to provide credible souces or citations.

Historical Disinformation will be removed

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

I'm not even trying to be fair, impartial, or unbiased. This is a rant about people whose ahistorical bullshit and blood and soil appropriation of ancient cultures they have no relation to beyond living in vaguely the same place to make themselves feel better about working in cubicals pisses me off.

This shit just pisses me off. I did Viking larping for years, studied some Archeology, read a lot of very boring site reports. These guys are a bunch of neo-pagans, emphasis on neo, making shit up to fit modern white-supremacist notions of a mythical golden age because Romans and Christians showed up and turned everyone in to [misogyny noises].

There's just so much that pisses me off. The droning, and throat singing, and all that shit? Has nothing to do with Europe at any period in the last 10,000 years. Thoraboos just grabbed it from other parts of the world because they think it's dark and scary or something. What we actually have attested of viking, ei early medieval Northern European, entertainment consisted of what were basically rap battles, with people getting up to show off by dissing each other using an elaborate poetic language of word games, metaphors, allusions, and references that was, by design, hard to follow; Being clever and inventive was part of the game.

They're dressed like shit - Apparently the antlers are based on some artifacts found at Starr Carr, England. The Starr Carr site in 9,000 years old. It has nothing, at all, what so ever, to do with vikings, germans, or any people or culture recognizably related to Europeans.

idk what's with the dull colors. Vikings were kind of famous for wearing brightly colored clothes in clashing colors.

And the obsessive focus about droning on and on about Odin this and Odin that. For one, the Odin cult is fairly recent. I think after like 500ad, at best guess, with Thor and Freyr probably pre-dating that. And who knows what was going on prior to that. The people living in Europe at the time were almost entirely illiterate. They didn't write things down so we don't know what their pictures depict or what any of it meant.

My point is, mostly - "Norse Neo-Paganism" was invented in the 90s in Europe, and in the 60s in the US. In the US it was dreamed up by a white Neo-Nazi who was bored in Prison. It's totally, utterly, utterly ahistorical. It's just a mish-mash of neo-ager shit from the 60s, random Victorian esoteric-ism, terrible pop-history, and German romantic nationalism. And, I cannot emphasize this enough, the entire point of Germanic romantic nationalism was to create a unifying national mythology to convince all the German speaking people that they were part of the nation ethnic nation, which was flagrantly ridiculous and completely ahistorical. And it formed most of the basis for Nazi nationalism.

Nothing about any of this has anything to do with history or archeology. It's all about building a mythical golden age that conforms to modern nationalist and racial mythology. Europeans alienated by modernity and unsatisfied by Christianity are appropriating the practices of Indigenous people in order to try to create an indigenousness for themselves. It's pure what no theory does to a motherfucker. They don't like modern society, so instead of doing something about it they form a reactionary nationalist, racialized, and mythic rejection of it. And they don't even go for the cool parts, like dressing really pretty and combing your hair and singing poetry, that are actually attested; They make up this stupid militaristic grunting and growling bullshit while mashing together cultures thousands of years distant, spread across huge areas, all trying to create on through-going nationalist myth. They congratulate themselves about owning the Romans in Teutonberg forest, ignoring that Arminius was a Roman Equestrian, a Citizen, and that pretty much everyone at the time thought Rome was awesome since that's where the wine, engineers, bathes, and all the other cool shit came from. This nationalist "Romans vs. Germans" shit would have been completely bizarre to people of the time who didn't consider Romans an ethnicist (which they were not) and didn't consider themselves "Germans".

And then they jump 800 years forward to claim they're all vikings, a completely different culture with a different religion, different language, different economy, different everything. And then, without missing a single fucking beat, they start drawing medieval Icelandic Christian magic signs from the 1600s on themselves while reciting Snorri's 13th century Icelandic Christian fan-fic, in which the Norse gods are actually survivors of the Trojan war.

It's so fucking frustrating. Just jumping back and forth in history, snatching things from disparate periods, languages, and cultures, mixing in absolutely nonsense new-ager mysticism, flat out making things up that sound cool, dressing the whole thing up with hyper-masculine toxic dudebro bullshit, and, AND, fucking things up for the rest of us because now if I wear a thor's hammer or something people think I'm either a racist or a choose your own adventure idiot or both. Like if I hear one more asshole going on about how cool and germanic it was that his ancestors blew scary lur horns at the Germans and that makes him proud as a viking and would I like to see his authentic slavic pagan tattoos I'm going to throw my shield at his head. Some dipshit was like "Oh yeah the we know about the Germans because ibn Fadlan blah blah blah" and it's like you absolute fucking shithead, ibn Fadlan was hanging out with Rus on the fucking Volga!

I legit had an argument with some jackasses who were "reclaiming" the black sun, the SS one, and I could not hammer throught their fucking heads that Himmler made the fucking thing up and there was nothing to reclaim.

This ahistorical made up bullshit drives me absolutely fucking bonkers. Modern people trying to project their modern noias and alienation back on to ancient cultures we barely know anything about and coming up with weird fashy nationalist shit. Just absolutely infuriating at every level. And god forbid you tell any of these dipshits that there's lots of evidence that the adoption of Christianity across Europe was gradual and voluntary. Many of them are very strongly latched on to having a colonialism narrative of their very own so they can cry about the big mean christians who destroyed their manly natural magical authentic pan-european pagan golden age! Never mind that pretty much all of their fucking written sources ARE CHRISTIANS. Their whole conception of these cultures is mostly uncritically based on Christian fiction written for entertainment! Often hundreds of years after any of the cultural or religious practices described would have actually occured, if they were real at all!

Also apparently there are no drums to be found in "viking age" sites in Scandanavia?!?!?!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 61 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

This reads like it was written by an ancient norse person who hibernated for a thousand years, Army of Darkness style, then woke up and is now looking around with visible-disgust

[–] Mardoniush@hexbear.net 32 points 11 months ago

This post brought to you by The Old Gods of Asgard from Alan Wake.

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 50 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Its because white people like the idea of the whole 'rape and pillage might make right manly white man' Viking myth invented by white supremacists

[–] theposterformerlyknownasgood@hexbear.net 29 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I mean that one was invented by the English, which I suppose makes it invented by white supremacists. But only indirectly .

[–] BeamBrain@hexbear.net 20 points 11 months ago (20 children)

Isn't that basically how the Vikings operated though (except, of course, they wouldn't think of themselves as white)?

[–] Huldra@hexbear.net 43 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The thing sort of is that Vikings werent "a people" but specific people doing specific actions for profit, its like how you can engage in piracy and be a pirate because of that, but pirates are not "a people".

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 21 points 11 months ago

"Vik" is generally held to mean small fjords that pirates would launch out of using fast rowed ships to over-take heavier, less maneuverable merchant vessels. Vikings, according to this thought, were people who attackes from viks, and yeah, they were pirates.

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 27 points 11 months ago

The vast, vast majority of them were farmers, fishermen, crafts people, or slaves to the above three. Going viking was something a small portion of the population did, usually to raise seed money for a farm, fishing vessel, or their own viking expeditions. Vikings engaged in as much trade as pillaging but since every written account we have is from Christians who were absolutely fucking terrified of them (baring some corner cases like ibn Fadlan), they were mostly written about as horror movie monsters. They were famous travelers and traders - There's Muslim coins in Scandanvian medieval sites, for instance. Half the reason they were turning up in Inland France is that they had better ships than almost anyone in Europe, far more sea-worthy, faster, and often capable of navigating fairly shallow rivers. So they could go pretty much anywhere they wanted, and did, and a lot of them were pirates and pirates are exciting and scary so people wrote about the pirates and not the guys who showed up with five tons of salt herring, cat fur, and seal skins to trade for whatever the fuck French people had to trade for. Probably mud and heresy.

Re: Thinking of themselves as white; Beowolf is a spear-Geat or something. there were about eighteen flavors of Geats at the time and they all hated each other when they weren't fucking. He wasn't Swedish because the idea of Sweden didn't exist yet, because Nation-States were invented in the 17th and 18th centuries by assholes. Hrothgar wasn't Danish, he was a Scylding.

load more comments (17 replies)
[–] HumanBehaviorByBjork@hexbear.net 48 points 11 months ago (3 children)

What do you do when music is intriguing, but the message and imagery are somewhat repulsive? When the visuals are fascinating, but you come away a bit queasy?

No, I’m not talking gangsta rap, although the same issue has occasionally been known to arise (cf Cardi B, my current favorite vocalist…)

I know it's not the subject of the post but holy shit shut the fuck up you fucking loser

[–] Huldra@hexbear.net 57 points 11 months ago (2 children)

This kind of shit somehow manages to only ever be written about rap and not about, say, the several decades of rock music where every band was obligated to have at least one song that's about pedophilia.

[–] NephewAlphaBravo@hexbear.net 41 points 11 months ago

"I don't normally like rock'n'roll, but" ancaptain

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] 187_Invitation@hexbear.net 28 points 11 months ago

gangsta rap

Cardi B

LOL!

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 26 points 11 months ago

Gangsta rap is far more authentically viking than Heilung and I will kill people on this hill until I have raised up a mountain of skulls for my throne.

[–] Mardoniush@hexbear.net 45 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

I know a few (left wing) Astaru practitioners and they're all very, very clear that they're appropriating symbology to make something entirely new and that there's way less continuity even compared to say Egyptian neopagans (And we're pretty clear on what Egyptians believed and how it developed, unfortunately much of the practice violates whatever the equivalent of the human remains act is in your country.)

Pretty sure if they saw someone with a black sun they'd have a black eye to go with it.

[–] SpookyGenderCommunist@hexbear.net 30 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Yeah, Norse neopagans are either rad as fuck, or literal Nazis, with no in between

[–] KarlBarqs@hexbear.net 26 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I unfortunately know a number of turbolib and centrist "neopagans" who basically practice the grab-bag version that our comrade is ranting about in the opener, and they practice it due to being white but wanting to be "interesting".

[–] SpookyGenderCommunist@hexbear.net 18 points 11 months ago

As a pagan myself, I know exactly the kind of person your talking about. People who put zero research or thought into their practice and just treat everything like a spiritual mad lib.

They tend to be the more new-agey types who's beliefs are unknowingly and uncritically parroting Helena Blavatsky and her fascist nonsense.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Frank@hexbear.net 25 points 11 months ago (7 children)

There is an entirely legitimate left-wing queer af reading of Norse mythology and I greatly support it. Like I am so angry about this because I actually believe in and try to live by a lot of the ideas presented in Norse mythology. Ideas like stoic endurance in the face of an undeniable fate, Integrity in the face of great hardship, being a lying cheating bastard, and transing your gender to do magic (Odin is trans deal with it). It all pisses me off so much. They create Odin as this great Teutonic Wagnerian war god when he's actually the god of being a lying cheating sneaky bastard who trans's his gender to do magic, always believes the ends justifies the means, back-stabs everyone, and does it all with a clear goal of pursuing a greater good by postponing Ragnarok.

All these dorks want to go to Valhalla. In Valhalla you wake up every morning, eat breakfast, and then spend the whole day being murdered by the most vicious psychopaths who ever lived. It's a warrior afterlife. Something pursued by people who had a fatalistic monomaniacal love of death and slaughter and wanted to do that forever. All these modern dipshits have never even swung a sword in anger, never killed anyone, have probably never tasted their own blood. They go out in to the woods wearing entire hides they bought from a thrift store and grunting and smearing themselves with shit pretending to be warriors when they've never fought for anything in their lives.

And it's misogynist as hell. Odin get's HALF OF THE VALOROUS DEAD. FREYJA HOSTS THE OTHER HALF IN FOLKVANGR! If you die in battle you've only got a 50/50 chance of chilling with Odin. You're just as likely to end up in Freyja's halls having to hang out with icky women. We all remember Freyja, right? One of the Norse gods of war? Rides around on a chariot pulled by cats, goddess of hunting, everyone is terrified of her? Odin this, Odin that, so much fucking wanking abut Odin when Freyja is his co-equal Goddess of war, equally sharing the valorous dead with him. Frankly, if I get shot by the cops, I hope I end up in Folkvangr because I don't want to deal with all these Odin worshiping dipshits.

God and so much of Norse mythology is literally just Thor and Loki going on road-trips and getting in to trouble. Where do they get all this chest beating hyper-masculine warrior stuff? Like Thor's hammer gets stolen one time and the Aesir blame it on Loki because they blame everything on Loki so Loki makes it right by getting Thor gay-married to a giant and theres a whole sequence at the wedding feast where the Giants are just in awe of Thor's feminine ability to eat the whole feast and drink everyone under the table. And yeah, when Thor gets Mjolnir back he flies in to a rage and kills all the giants, but up until that point it's a silly comedy about gender and masculinity where Thor, the mightiest and most loved of the gods, is humiliated and made to look foolish.

And where does the racism come from? The Aesir have a big fucking war with the Vanir and how do they settle things? Genocide? No, they make peace and start fucking. The Jotnar are the mortal enemies of the Aesir, except half the Aesir are married to Jotunn or banging Jotunn on the side! Loki fucked a horse for fuck's sake, and then Odin was like "Damn Loki your horse son is cool as hell I'm going to hang out with him all the time and ride him in to battle and we're going to be best buds." SLEIPNIR IS HALF-HORSE HALF JOTUNN. ODIN HAS NO PROBLEM WITH THAT AT ALL. It's all total bullshit. If anything the core message of Norse Religion isn't racism and "blood and soil" and "muh proud European ancestry". It's "Fuck everyone you meet, especially if you were just at war with them". The Aesir would solve the European refugee crisis by having a phenomenal amount of sex, not by "defending their bloody soil" or whatever the fuck Nazis think.

Did I mention that in some times and places in medieval Northern Europe men were thought to be too dumb to do math and handle property so women ran all the houseland logistics and finances, often owned the property, and gave their husbands allowances so they wouldn't have to worry their silly little heads with doing sums?

Or that there were pretty robust divorce laws where women retained their independence and property at some points?

Or a bunch of other shit that would be considered progressive today? Mixed in with plenty of horrible shit, and this was only some jurisdictions at some times, but "My wife owns our house and gives me an allowance because I'm dumb and irresponsible" doesn't really line up with all the viking tradwife barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen bullshit. z

And like all the warrior stuff is for warriors. The Eddas and all the Sagas are basically about comic book heroes, not normal people. They were written as exciting adventure tales about revenge and violence to be told (probably sung) in the hall in the middle of winter when everyone was bored out of their minds. They probably don't depict the normal lives of normal people. I am convinced there were plenty of people who were perfectly satisfied to go to Hel's hall when they died and skip the whole death and glory operation that Frejya and Odin were running. It's not like people were rushing off to get themselves killed; There are plenty of stories of old people being buried with swords in their hands to try to trick the gods!

BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH

load more comments (7 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] RedQuestionAsker2@hexbear.net 36 points 11 months ago (1 children)

What's up with adding "neo" to things to make them shittier?

I think this "choose your own adventure" approach to spiritually is pretty symptomatic of our atomized world where we can pick up these ideas like we're at a buffet. You've got corpos cherry picking parts of Buddhism as a lifestyle-ism, and you've got lots of people picking up paganism and witchcraft as glorified fashion statements.

I don't think these are deeply held beliefs. They just think these things are cool, and traditions imitate meaning, so they can fool themselves into thinking they're deeply connected to something ancient despite the fact that it was destroyed centuries ago.

[–] TheDialectic@hexbear.net 18 points 11 months ago

Right now sucks. So if you make a modern version of anything it is adding the suck from modern society to old stuff.

Alot of this is just ad hoc attempts to relive alienation you are right on the money there. Also it clearly works though, so there is something important to take away from this. We need to make it so white supremacy isn't the only group with nice things.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 35 points 11 months ago

That was an incredibly cathartic effortpost. This shit passes me off to no end as well.

[–] TheDialectic@hexbear.net 29 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

I have some sympathy with them. If it wasn't for the rascist shit that would all be cool as hell. I known I would want to feel connected to a fantasy tradition that linked me to all the people's of the world thst have been forgotten. Cause, you know how the founding fathers were neo-romans? They brought back the senate, conquest and slavery? Fuck yeah put me on the other team. The picts and the saami have more in common with me than I have with Rome. The problem is with whiteness I don't even have any connection to whatever my own ancestors were. So any attempt to feel connected to anything beyond my self feels just as fake as it is with this fake stuff. So why would any particular person not simply pick and choose since we are alienated enough all things are equal?

Alternatively we have two genders here. Renfair were created by queer comunists theater people around the red scare. So that is other gender of a historical fantasy. If we look at renfaor tiktok it seems seems pretty queer. So there might be a solution here and it is nerds beefing over turf.

[–] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 27 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I'm joining the war on reactionary cultural appropriation of colonized people by fascists that idolize their destroyers, on the side of queer cultural appropriation of foofy aristocratic fashion and vagabond mercenaries.

(unironically renfairs are cool as shit, and it is 100% zero surprise that they have roots in queer communities, because theatre kids will be theatre kids.)

[–] TheDialectic@hexbear.net 20 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Yeah

It's cool

I guess some new discourse came out about it or I never would have known. Way cooler than I thought though.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] WittyProfileName2@hexbear.net 28 points 11 months ago

What we actually have attested of viking, ei early medieval Northern European, entertainment consisted of what were basically rap battles, with people getting up to show off by dissing each other using an elaborate poetic language of word games, metaphors, allusions, and references that was, by design, hard to follow; Being clever and inventive was part of the game.

Ooh, like old Scottish flyting traditions. Or the pwnco sometimes carried out during Mari Lwyd. Way cooler than than all that grungy droning shit that has to be obligatorily wedged into everything that tries to be pagan.

[–] corgiwithalaptop@hexbear.net 26 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I appreciate this post and am gonna send it to all my Heilung fan friends

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 25 points 11 months ago (1 children)

There's something so distasteful to me about this shit. These religions died. You could at least let them rest with some dignity instead of Frankensteining a bunch of shit together.

[–] TheDialectic@hexbear.net 19 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Giving the old gods some new prayers is nice. They just need not to be shitty rasicsts about it.

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 35 points 11 months ago (2 children)

They're not "The old gods". They're pastiches of characters from Medieval Christian fiction, blended in to slop and piped in to molds created by modern Christians alienated from their lives searching for "authenticity" to give them a sense of place and meaning. They are the McChicken McNugget of religion; Where the McNugget was once a living animal it has now been stripped of all resemblance and relation to the creature from which it was derived. In the same way medieval Northern European Religion has only the vaguest, most tenuous connections to modern neo-paganism, and that really only amounts to a handful of names hastily glued to 19th century Prussian militarism.

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 24 points 11 months ago

They are the McChicken McNugget of religion

You have no idea how much this line makes my brain tingle in delight

[–] TheDialectic@hexbear.net 18 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

The shadow of Prussia once again just makes stuff worse.

I would counter that while they might not be the old gods, the old gods weren't the old gods. As unless I am very mistaken about several things gods aren't real. The "old gods" are what we can imagine of life before neoliberalism and unalienated connection to others. Which is still way better than what people would worry about with their time otherwise.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net 25 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Are we doing "historical accuracy in videogames" but for music now lol

[–] Huldra@hexbear.net 35 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Any media that advertises itself as historical should be scrutinized on if its actually historically accurate or just larp that distorts history.

This isn't about if the village people are historically accurate.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Frank@hexbear.net 19 points 11 months ago (2 children)

No, we are doing historical accuracy for white supremacist mythology LARPs that claim to be authentic magical healing rituals while dressed like idiots. For their crimes against fashion alone they should be punished. If it wasn't super-homophobic I'd accuse them of being unmanly, which according to their very true and authentic and spiritual history which is real and not made up would require them to fight me to the death on the spot to prove that my accusation was false, or else forfeit all their rights and property and become as wolves, with all people forbidden from aiding or sheltering them, and like wolves they could be hunted and killed without consequence.

[Torngy the Lawspeaker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torgny_the_Lawspeaker play me out!)

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] SwitchyWitchyandBitchy@hexbear.net 24 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

…and that pretty much everyone at the time thought Rome was awesome since that's where the wine, engineers, bathes, and all the other cool shit came from

side-eye-1

Hasn’t that been the justification for imperialism since for ever?

Well, the justification when you don’t wanna seem racist/xenophobic/etc.

[–] TheDialectic@hexbear.net 26 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

No, I think even the people who ended up being crushed by the empire thought indoor plumbing was cool before they were killed. Having cool stuff is not a moral philosophy

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 21 points 11 months ago
[–] DanComrd@hexbear.net 20 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Can someone recommend me some good sources/books/videos on paganism or polytheism and norse "lore" that is at least more historical than the made up bs from modern times?

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 25 points 11 months ago (3 children)

"Paganism" literally just means "Not Christian". There is no Paganism. There are countless non-Christian religions that have existed in different cultures at different points in time. Trying to lump all of it under a fictive category of "Paganism" is silly nonsense. You need to specify a time and a place. Almost all actual information from the "Norse", ie medieval Northern European period comes from Christian Writers. Most of the high-fantasy stuff about Odin and Thor and whatnot is based on the Prose and Poetic Edda, with all the various Sagas and stuff like Beowulf to fill it out. There isn't very much of it, and what there is is often infected with the nationalist and romantic brainworms of it's translators. If you just want to read something for fun the Prose Edda in it's modern translations is a lot of fun. Neil Gaiman has a "Norse Mythology" book if you like him. But remember; It's all fiction written for the entertainment of Christians centuries after anyone actually believed these things or practiced these religions. We can make educated guesses but we have no idea what "real" vikings thought because with a very, very, vanishingly small number of exceptions they didn't leave any writing behind and we only know what other people from other religions and cultures wrote down.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] MaoTheLawn@hexbear.net 20 points 11 months ago

Thoughts on the film The Northman?

[–] JohnBrownNote@hexbear.net 20 points 11 months ago

What we actually have attested of viking, ei early medieval Northern European, entertainment consisted of what were basically rap battles, with people getting up to show off by dissing each other using an elaborate poetic language of word games, metaphors, allusions, and references that was, by design, hard to follow; Being clever and inventive was part of the game.

hey they had that in assassin's creed: nonbinary

[–] AbbysMuscles@hexbear.net 19 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

shrug-outta-hecks I saw them live recently and had a lovely time. A bunch of nerds shrieking about it online won't change that for me

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Dolores@hexbear.net 19 points 11 months ago

Wagner-cum-Las Vegas

this is the most cursed phrase ive ever read

Also apparently there are no drums to be found in "viking age" sites in Scandanavia?!?!?!

oh my god give me a source this is such an own to add to my anti-icelander toolbox holy shitttt

dipshits that there's lots of evidence that the adoption of Christianity across Europe was gradual and voluntary

dialectic with chastising christians for being bloodthirsty convertors. Karl's saxon campaign & the knights in prussia were appropriately bloody. and what kind of kingdom's conversion wasn't complete without murdering some stubborn old fools that refused to get with the times?

This nationalist "Romans vs. Germans" shit would have been completely bizarre to people of the time who didn't consider Romans an ethnicist (which they were not) and didn't consider themselves "Germans"

wasn't there a show that did this really hard, and got a bunch of praise for trying to use reconstructed dialects? i fucking loathe Wagner and pan-germanicism fr tho, just telling a story about a time romans get owned is fun & i'm here for massacring legions (overcoming superior arms is conceptually always cool). but because of that fucker any ancient-germany related shit gets loaded with all this nazi ideology.

and what's worse, the most fabulous of the germans that owned Romans? the Goths weren't even fucking from germany. and the myth about them coming from gotland is probably specious, or at least so remote legit ethnogenesis is still a small caste of germans synthesizing with locals in ukraine, possibly under Hunnic pressure

[–] SoyViking@hexbear.net 18 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I'm kind of divided on the anachronism in acts like Heilung. On one side it is ridiculous to claim that stuff like this is anything near a meaningful reconstruction of prehistoric music and visuals. On the other hand taking a bunch of eclectic elements and blending them together can sometimes give a result that is interesting. A lot of modern historicism is ahistoric as fuck but it still has artistic value.

I guess that what makes the difference is what you present it as. Intriguing and out of the ordinary as their act is, Heilung are a bunch of charlatans by claiming to play authentic Ur-Viking/Aryan/Chad music, it would be very different if they admitted to just be picking and choosing whatever they found cool. But then it would be obvious that the militaristic and misogynist elements of the act was something they decided to put in there and you wouldn't get the "historical accuracy" fig leaf to cover your own shitty politics with.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Zezzy@hexbear.net 18 points 11 months ago (3 children)

To pick a nit – last I heard, no scholar believes that runes can be read, pronounced, or that we have access to any ancient tradition of meaning. Modern runic divination is based on intuitive interpretation – well and good, but a flimsy basis for reconstructing lost languages and cultures.

Am I just not understanding the authors point or is this like, completely wrong? Linguistics is a real field, and there has been a lot of study into runes and the Germanic language family (probably too much study, considering the issue with Eurocentrism throughout linguistics). Wikipedia is pretty detailed about the different eras and how the runes were pronounced and changed.

The point about modern Runic Divination being vibes based looks to be true, but it seems wrong to bring it up unprompted and conflate the two.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›