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Imagine being afraid of the ‘friend zone’
(hexbear.net)
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this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2023
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chapotraphouse
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Yes it is a real concern. And honestly, I think leftists are terrible at giving dating advice, especially when it comes to men. There are some considerate leftists that actually give concrete advice (like start exercising, find clothes that fit better, maybe trim the beard so it looks nice, get a good haircut or shave it completely if balding, try to look people in the eye instead of looking down all the time, learn small talk, learn banter, learn how to express romantic interest, find that difference between confident and creepy and know when you've crossed it, etc.) Most of the "advice" I see is just "don't be a r!pist!" and "don't harass women!" Like bro that's obvious, but to the guy that's constantly getting rejected, especially when apps like Tinder make it so the a few super good looking guys pretty much clean house (and this dynamic absolutely spills over into offline interactions), there needs to be better advice.
When this advice is lacking, or people dismiss these young men because "there are so many other problems why would I care about MEN!", this can lead to alienated young men finding their way into reactionary spaces. In this case a little prevention is worth ten tons of cure.
And lastly, I'll say this, it's completely disingenuous to remain "friends" with someone after you've been friendzoned if you initially had romantic feelings for them and those romantic feelings still persist. Unless your feelings magically also changed to platonic ones, then there's a relational imbalance that will always linger. It's better to just say "hey I like you in a more romantic way and even though you want to be friends, perhaps it's better that we don't hang out."
This kind of pre-emptive antagonism between people in the dating pool only makes it gradually more antagonistic over time.
It's already rare enough for cishet men to have nonromantic friendships with cishet women; making it more antagonistic over time by normalizing fear and anger about "friendzoning" only makes that a little worse for everyone as time goes on.
I expanded on what I meant in the rest of the sentence (since you only quoted part of it and not the whole).
Yeah I agree that the fear and anger shouldn't be normalized, but we should also normalize being open about our feelings and not suppressing them and remaining "friends" while still holding hope that it will become something more (which I also think can be super dangerous). I expanded on that in a reply to someone else if you wanna see it.
No arguments from me here.
This is still possible, and I have done it, no scare quotes needed.
Now this is the toxic part that fucks it all up and makes the friendship impossible if it's held that way.
It really is possible to be attracted to someone and accept that the other person isn't attracted back and still be nonromantic friends. I have done it, and I still have those friendships many years later.
So I think that there needs to be more advice on how to do this, as I've rarely encountered someone who's successfully navigated it as you have. Maybe a separate post on how to do it? But anyways, should people want to pursue that option, I think it's something that the individual needs to assess based on the strength of their feelings. If they are not emotionally ready for this kind of change (and from what I've seen a lot, maybe most, cis-straight men aren't), then I think not seeing the person anymore might be the better option. Otherwise if they really want to try to make a friendship work (and actually try to be friends and not try to "get in" later) then I guess your advice would be helpful.
There's an entire field of therapy and self-help that covers this, called radical acceptance. It isn't something that can instantly be picked up as much as something that is practiced and improved upon. Accepting the reality that the other person is not romantically/sexually interested and accepting that one's own romantic/sexual tensions will not be fulfilled to that person leads to a release of tension and the growth and flourishing of other positive emotional experiences that can then happen with that person. They won't become romantic/sexual, and by that point, it won't matter to you.
There's entire libraries worth of books on the subject, and I assume a browse of the highest rated ones is a place to start. Therapists also offer basic training courses for how to observe one's lived reality in the moment, how the body feels, how the mind feels, being instead of doing so to speak.
If it is too much for someone to be friends with someone after a romantic/sexual offer is turned down, so be it, but being honest and forward about how that feels is the best thing to do no matter what happens next. The worst choice is to try to remain "friends" while hoping for some kind of romantic/sex opportunity later.
Retort: no it's not. Try being a normal person.
Did you read the rest of the sentence, or the paragraph? Or are you just knee-jerk reacting to a part of what I said? Honest question.
It's the latter, unfortunate part of hexbear's culture being so focused on dunking. I've been flamed for comments that get widespread support a few weeks later. Whether or not most people disagree is entirely based on the vibes of the post for minor issues.
Looks like that happened in this very thread lol. I see comments now that basically mirror what I said earlier in the thread's history.
Disagree. It's not hard to turn a crush into a squish. I know 2000s era TV made it seem like it's impossible to be friends with someone you love without acting like a creep, but that's just not true. Just have a little honesty. "I find you romantically attractive but I also value your friendship."
Yeah people I've friendzoned have secretly introjected me and pursued a relationship with the introject in the past, but that's called being a creep, it's not called having feelings.
So I must be out of the loop here, what's a squish? What's introjecting? Never heard of those terms before
A squish is a persistent feeling of platonic attraction to someone. It's the platonic equivalent of a crush. When I'm around someone I have a squish on, I'm excited and happy to be near them. With time and familiarity, these feelings usually fade and get replaced with platonic love, which is the foundation of a good friendship.
Introjection is when a system creates a member with an identity based on an external source. These sources are usually fictional characters, which results in system members called fictives, but there are also factives, which are members based on a factional source. I friendzoned someone I was dating and they accidentally introjected me some time after. They decided to keep the introject a secret and do romantic activities with it, which was very gross for me. Factive introjection can often be a problem with no easy answers, but the least that can be done is a little honesty.
Ah I see
Ok I'm completely lost here. I don't know what a system is. And I take it factional source is a real source, as opposed to fiction?
A system is a brain with multiple people in it. And yeah, a factional source is one that actually exists. I wouldn't say "real", because I don't identify as real and my introject was still a factive. There's a difference between what exists and what's real.
So like multiple personality?
Dissociative Identity Disorder used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder, but it was renamed to focus on the symptoms that were actually harmful, because being plural isn't a sickness. Plurality can also arise from other disorders such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and it can also arise naturally or as the result of deliberate or accidental efforts. It's often linked with spiritual beliefs by people who experience it in a way which conflicts with normative reality's narratives. Leonard Nimoy famously has a Spock in his head who he sometimes talks with, because of all the years he spent playing Spock on TV. The brain adapts.
I agree with most of what you said, but I really don't see why you couldn't be friends with someone you had/have feelings for. You can keep stuff to yourself, and be okay with being friends. Obviously the crusher has to accept that going further isn't going to happen. You can logically know something, and behave accordingly, even if your feelings are different.
I think that may sound good in theory, but in practice emotions really fuck with us. So if one is trying to assess how to best proceed, there needs to be an honest accounting on the strength and frequency of these feelings. It's almost like a calculated risk to be honest. You need to really know yourself. If you think you can do it then yeah good for you, but I think in our current environment it might just create more danger to the women because they may not know who is honestly trying to be friends and who is "just trying to get in" under the guise of friendship. Maybe this analogy isn't that good, but it's almost like job hunting, if you get rejected I suppose you can try to "follow up and keep trying" but it's better to move on (and I fully acknowledge that dating isn't transactional like a job but it still kind of is a "market" for lack of a better term).
I agree, it is difficult. And if the crushee didn't want to keep being friends, I could understand that. I'm also not saying people should feel like they have to be friends if they don't want to be, for whatever reason.
I think asking for a promotion would be a better analogy. You obviously (I say obviously but from what I've heard...) shouldn't keep asking for a date or a job interview. But remaining friends isn't nagging for a job interview. It's hoping things can stay the same. I've not gotten promoted before, but I don't think it'd be better to just quit. (as long as I can be okay in my current place).
Actually that reminds me of something slightly related. It always seems like back in the day guys would ask a girl out like ten times before she finally said yes. I always hear stories from older couples like "he asked me out 20 times before I said yes and we've been happily married for 60 years!" But nowadays persistence is seen as being creepy in dating, although it's kind of still promoted in sales, business, etc.
If Pride and Prejudice, written in the 1800s, has anything to say about it, women back then found that pushy and obnoxious and sometimes gave into it but it wasn't seen as a desirable method. Mr. Collins does that to Ms. Bennet and one of the most famous speeches in the book is her reply criticizing that "normal" approach.
https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/pride/full-text/chapter-19/
Interesting, can you expand on this and why you shouldn’t be friends with someone you’re attracted to? Like, do you think ‘platonic’ and ‘romantic’ are binary conditions?
I’m not aaying you’re wrong but I’m interested in why you think it’s strictly disingenuous. I completely agree with the rest of what you said btw
Because if you continue hanging out with that person, the feelings will always remain. Like I said, maybe they somehow changed, but honestly, will a guy (this example is hetero-cis obv) who was initially attracted to a girl and then told "hey let's just be friends" actually change his feelings? I mean they're feelings because we kind of can't control them. So the guy needs to be honest with himself and with the girl. Otherwise he's basically staying in there to "try and get in" at a later time. That's disingenuous. He's better off spending his time trying with someone else. Maybe in that case he can remain friends with the girl since he has other options.
Not strictly but they are more cut and dry then people like to think. And it seems to be perceived differently along gender lines (at least for straight cis relationships). Check out this video and look at the responses: https://youtu.be/T_lh5fR4DMA?feature=shared.
Now whether these responses are socially conditioned or somehow "innate" is a debate I leave to the scientists and sociologists, but there is obviously a perceived difference. I mean just look up "friend zone" standup routines on youtube or anywhere really, people talk about it all the time (https://youtube.com/shorts/zbjMJBixZI8?feature=shared and https://youtu.be/_KE6Y3VrMg4?feature=shared). The truth is that there are many dudes basically remaining in "friendships" disingenuously in order to get with the girl. This is not only disingenuous, but if the guy harbors resentment on being only considered "a friend" then it can lead to violent outbursts later in the "friendship." So it's not only bad for the guys involved, but can be potentially life-threatening for the women. So like I said, it's better to admit how you feel and if you still have those feelings, it's probably better to maybe be aquiantances at best, but not friends (unless your feelings have actually changed, which I think represents a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of those who get friendzoned).
I've remained friends with people I was attracted to and that the other person knew I was attracted to, and those friendships have lasted for many years. It is possible. You don't speak for everyone.
I know, and I never claimed to. That's great that it worked out for you, and I'm happy.
I in turn acknowledge that getting romantically rejected does hurt and that hurt is real.
I just don't want that hurt to further worsen the dating pool and the systemic antagonism between (often cishet) men and women where the former get caught up in the "friendzone" concept and sometimes harbor rage against the latter, rage that often makes those women more likely to "friendzone" others because the alternatives can involve violence during a date that goes sour and all they're trying to do is let the guy off easy, which yes isn't really a friendship but also over times makes nonromantic friendships that much rarer between those groups.
At one time I thought I’d try my hand at being a “leftist dating advice” person, just given my perspective as being now over 40 and in a long term relationship. But I’ve since come to the opinion that all generic dating advice is mostly pointless. Trying to understand what you are doing wrong (or right) in dating is just too specific to each individual person, IMO. We all just have too many blind spots when it comes to ourselves. Not to mention so much of getting dating right is “be like this but don’t go too far in the other direction either”.
I spent so much time and energy in my single days trying to read up on dating advice and try to figure out what I was doing wrong. But ultimately what I was going wrong was a few things that were hyper-specific to myself, and generic dating advice wouldn’t mention that or if it did, I didn’t realize it applied to me.
I guess if I had any dating advice, it would be to ignore generic dating advice and try and have people in your life (friends, family, even exes) who know you well and will be brutally honest with you. And you have to be brutally honest with yourself, or otherwise you will never be able to internalize what other people tell you.
That, and being with someone is also a leftist, sympathetic to your political views, or at least apolitical but cool if you want to do praxis or occasionally rant about stuff like how capitalism evolved out of feudalism is pretty dang important.
So I'm kind of torn on this, because of how I keep hearing about romantic relationships causing orgs to basically implode. It's like there are so few leftists that when people meet in an org it becomes desperate people meeting other desperate people and basically forgetting the whole point of the org.
I don't know, in my experience they'll never be brutally honest with you. Actually, they may not even know what to tell you in the first place and they may actually think that you're "a catch" so to speak and "who wouldn't want to date you!" I actually think hiring a dating coach might not be a bad idea, because they can assess you and actually give you good advice. And it would be specifically tailored to you.
Yeah I guess in my head, I was thinking specifically outside of leftist orgs you’re involved in. Can be pretty problematic if you value at all the work the org does. Honestly I think relationships with folks who aren’t leftist can work well so long as they’re broadly sympathetic to your views.
And I also agree that it’s hard for even friends or people close to you to figure out your issues. Not to mention there’s plenty of folks who don’t have friends like that in their lives. I like the idea of a dating coach. Also, I think if you work on being radically honest with yourself, you might be able to help yourself some. Like with myself, I think deep down I knew my problem was actually taking those first steps and taking chances, but I never wanted to admit it to myself.
That's essentially what the PUAs from the 2000s were. It was only towards the end of the 2000s and the early 2010s that you started to see that stuff morph into the "manosphere" and "red pill" stuff you see today.
you think the pua's of the 2000s weren't misogynistic?
I'm sure there was some there but it was mostly just guys who had gotten rejected a lot trying to figure out how to be more confident, dress better, and learn how to talk to women. Later on people started to mix politics in with it (i.e. "women are only like this cuz of feminism, liberalism, etc.")
it was always creepy from the get go, you familiar with Neil Strauss? you might benefit from hearing about his experience. like this is not good.
Yeah I know who he is. He actually had trouble with women even though he had backstage passes as a writing for rolling stone magazine. It wasn't until after he learned the dating skills that he was able to be better with women.
Maybe a therapist? Not like, in an accusatory 'you need therapy' kind of way - I just mean they could fill much the same role as you describe a dating coach filling, while also helping you deal with some of the rejection sensitivity that is often at the root of dating anxiety.
I mean I guess, but... I hate to use this term, but I think the therapist is only going to give you "blue pill" advice like "be yourself" or other useless platitudes. Unless the therapist has themselves dealt with this and somehow conquered it, I highly doubt a therapist would help.
a good therapist, on seeing a person come in and say "I'm troubled by this problem", will see if the problem is fixable. If you're super stressed because you're working 60 hours a week, your therapist should say "stop working 60 hours a week, and here's some techniques to ease the symptoms while you figure out how to stop doing that".
Bad luck dating is only somewhat fixable, since you can't control the minds of others. So a good therapist should push you to get better at dating if that's what you want, but also help you to become happier being single. (Drifting off-topic, I think being happily single is a lot easier after you've dated a bit, and now have the self-confidence that comes from knowing you could get laid if you felt like it but don't want to. Which may be one reason why single women are generally happier than single men. I hope this doesn't come across as mean but I'm clocking you as a younger, relatively inexperienced dude?)
My current therapist encourages me to trip shrooms and explore Hegel because that is what works for me. If you find a good one then they will quickly realize the traditional line of advice isn't what you're looking for. That said, I've also seen my share of awful therapists so I understand your hesitancy.
Finally an actual good comment.
To my fellow guys, there is nothing more pathetic than being an "orbiter" that stays friends with a women in the vague hope that they change their minds and want a romantic relationship with you. Everyone can tell it's disingenuous. You know it, the woman knows it, her friends and your friends can tell. Trust me on this one. Either accept that she doesn't see you that way if you want to remain friends, and if you can't accept that, it's best to put some distance between you and the person.
I guess I don't have any experience from the"friendzoned" side, but this feels kinda manipulative? You're basically giving them them an ultimatum to date you or cut off contact. I might just be sensitive or have completely different kind of relationship with my friends, but this would definitely burn bridges.
I guess I should clarified that this is more of something you'd say in the beginning, not too long after meeting someone.
I mean I see it more as you know who you are and are setting boundaries for yourself. If the other person insists on being friends while knowing that you are into them, I see that as kind of manipulative, because you're kind of pressuring the person with the feelings to make a decision to stay in an awkward situation.