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Disclaimer: I adore my anarchist comrades and I don't write for a newspaper, I have in fact never even read one.
this post was submitted on 13 Jan 2024
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chapotraphouse
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I just find it funny how the sectarianism rule isn't really a thing when it comes to trots.
:groundskeeper-Willie: Tankies and trots are natural enemies. Like socdems and trots. Or anarchists and trots. Or MLs and trots. Or trots and other trots.
Trots sound like a contentious people
You just split the party.
~~4th~~ 5th International
At this point we're past the 100's I think
You know what, I think you are right. I don’t know any Trots personally but there are plenty of them out there IRL that are cool and good (Michael Hudson and China Mieville come to mind). I’ve also read individual Trots as they often have good article and essays. They run the world’s best website, marxists.org; and IIRC they keep International Publishers going.
I feel similar about leftcoms (doubt we have any here, either). Dunk on some takes they might have, maybe allow for ACTUAL, thoughtful critique of positions, too. But no uncharitable generalizations.
I would love the rule to be that there’s no ripping on any genuine leftist movement in general, only ripping on specific takes by individuals.
Yeah this site is kinda weird about trots. I know trots that do way more than anarchists and have better takes and vice versa. Most ML's I know are armchair socialists but that's not reason to dunk on every ML.
Some people on here think that there's some specific tendency that, if they subscribe to, will push the socialism button.
Most of those were MLMs, they should get appropriate credit.
Also nobody has pulled it off in the imperial core yet.
What MLMs have ever seized power or formed a state?
The USSR was a Marxist and Leninist revolution. Mao was a Marxist-Leninist. Cuba's revolution was more broadly socialist until it won and was forced to defend itself from imperialism, at which point it adopted Marxism-Leninism officially. Juche is a subcategory of Marxism-Leninism and derives from it. May I remind you that MLM is a creation of Gonzalo and the Shining Path and created after the death of Mao.
I will give the Trotskyists some credit for being broadly involved in the pink wave in Venezuela, although that also was broadly Democratic Socialist. Venezuela and Bolivia seem to be exceptions to the global rule though, it's exceedingly rare for democratic socialists to win electorally and then maintain power.
In the imperial core itself democratic socialism is not possible and basically always results in social imperialism. If it doesn't, like Corbyn, it will be destroyed.
Honestly I saw "dozens" and assumed you were counting a bunch of dubiously successful MLM/third worldist projects, because how else would you get above, like, four.
You know Trotsky is a Leninist right?
Sorry, what do you think Trotsky was doing in 1917? The years prior?
Careful, you're getting close to doing the wrong kind of sectarianism
the "marx-leninism is the only tendency that has succeeded historically" line is always really funny to me. like, i get the appeal of believing that revolution is simply a cake that you need to follow a recipe to bake, but 1) the bolsheviks did not have any way of knowing that it would work when they put "leninism" (if you want to imagine it as a single, eternal, unchanging body of Correct Theory) into practice, so clearly they had something better on their side than the best books and the snappiest chants and 2) you have to do a lot of special pleading before you can get me to accept that the russian revolution "won" the world historic struggle to resolve the dialectic of capitalism.
this is the timeline in which communism has lost, repeatedly. we need a revolutionary practice that actually acknowledges that, and functions anyway.
Lmao I didn't say to ban you, I think you're taking this whole post way too seriously. It's all in jest.
I guess I'm misunderstanding you, didn't you just say that I said to ban you?
Edit: responded before your edit, I understand now
Yeah I got it after your edit, thanks for you explanation anyway though. I agree with a lot of your points, it's frustating but it's also a dificult needle to thread.
None has won and implying that any has you are turning this into a dick measuring contest which is basically the most bad faith and obvious sectarianism can get.
Word. It's the 21st century now, the world is radically radically different from the last time an ML revolution succeeded and held power. We need to keep learning, growing, adapting, and planning to be ready to operate in this century.
They're not there yet.
Cool and good until you say the word China and then the conversation turns into a complete shitshow.
Also every single article they have ever written has something in it about "stalinists". It is in fact the only way to tell something was written by a trot compared to any other ideological branch.
Shows
Shows
I'd be surprised if there are any on Hexbear to offend tbh.
They're too busy writing newspapers that no one will read.
That shouldn't really be an issue though since all the ml's are busy creating new parties (some guy in the last one thinks we should implement urban farms after the revolution, but my group thinks it's important to use the implementation of urban farms as a step of taking away power from the landholding class before the inevitable revolution)
And the anarchists are of course busy... Meeting in councils talking about how they should structure a council without a vote? Building parallel power structures (smoke weed with my friends)? Playing in a kindergarten? I dunno what the leftist stereotype of anarchists are.
Feeding vegan food to the unhoused and then doing drugs.
Yeah but statistically there have to be a lot of us former trots around
I'm generally okay with Trots but my god, the articles they put out can be really grating sometimes. Keep them on track and they can tell you a dozen interesting things about current-day struggles and labour movements. But let them stray a little and they'll just talk about how workers need to form their own rank-and-file movements free of collaborationist union leadership (which like, sure I guess, but union membership and vibrancy isn't exactly thriving throughout the world right now and I just don't think unions can have the same degree of power under financial capitalism that has exported industry to other countries so there's less means of production to even seize), and how Stalinists are destroying every good thing on the planet, and how China is secretly an even worse imperialist than America. I've spent nearly two years reading the stuff they put out and I feel like it would be pretty easy to set up an AI script to just write a solid third of their articles for them, so I hope they're getting in on that to save themselves some effort on the weekly China Bad article so they can focus on the better stuff that I know they can and do regularly write.
I appreciate that the online versions of most left-wing ideologies tend to spend a lot of time in the past for a variety of reasons - things seemed much more dynamic and changeable back then; the world is very difficult to understand and predict right now in anything but general trajectories; arguing online about past events is easier than going outside and actually doing stuff; most of the OG thinkers that you have to read to understand their works happened to be about a century or so ago and there's not a ton of big English-language communist works nowadays; etc - but of all the major left ideologies, Trots seem to be the ones who spend the most time in the past, and with ways of organizing and disseminating information that are built on the assumptions of a world that no longer really exists. They're kind of like the grandpas of the left. I can't really hate or even really dislike them that much, but you're not expecting a lot of energy and movement in that sphere compared to say, the still-surviving ML countries, or the vibrant and energetic anarchist sphere.
It's really ONLY a thing for anarchists, I used to call it the "be nice to anarchists" rule.
i think if there was a trot who really complained we'd probably stop, but they simply are not dedicated enough to posting to be on here
I'm part of a smallish local trot organisation whose members are grounded in reality and bring interesting conversations to the table. I don't really understand why everyone here digs into trots, I assume it's all part of a years-long inside joke on the site and I interpret it as good faith joshing around.
...That is how I'm supposed to interpret it, right?
it's kind of hard when i genuinely came across a trotskyist pamphlet this week
They do be writing newspapers. I really don't get it, they should be influencers (Instagram pages are the modern pamphlet)
Showing my butthole to everyone to benefit the mass line
Sexworkers are, no bullshit, consistently the most radical people I know with the best politics.
One of the things with trots is that they're a bit too committed to book worship, and don't translate the fact that influencing via media in the 19th century is not the same thing as influencing via media in the 21st century. You're absolutely right that the modern newspaper is no longer an actual newspaper.
They kind of strike me as tech-priests from 40k lol. Dogmatic adherents to doctrine no longer useful or relevant, though at times still helpful and insightful
TFW you read “What is to be Done?” and come away with “I must start a newspaper!”