this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2023
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chapotraphouse

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After Gary Hobish collapsed while swing-dancing with friends in Golden Gate Park Sunday, a fellow dancer raced to the nearby de Young Museum in search of a defibrillator. Most people in the group knew Hobish, 70, had a heart condition. Seconds counted.

Inside the museum, Tim O’Brien found himself pleading with a staff member to let him use the life-saving device, or to accompany him back to where Hobish, a legend of the Bay Area music scene, lay unconscious. O’Brien offered the museum staffer his wallet and his watch as collateral.

The museum staffer checked with his boss, but the answer was firm: The de Young defibrillator could not leave the building.

O’Brien sprinted empty handed back to the group, where a doctor who had luckily been on the scene was administering CPR. Paramedics arrived a few minutes later, but by then nearly 10 minutes had gone by, O’Brien said.

But I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody outside of a small circle of friends

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[–] Huldra@hexbear.net 106 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

Was there an ethical obligation to share the defibrillator?

The answer is not obvious.

Next paragraph.

Officials and experts said there was apparently no legal obligation for the de Young to share the device.

They highlighted several complicating considerations: What if the staffer had lent it out, and minutes later someone at the museum collapsed and needed it, they asked. And why should he lend it quickly to a distressed stranger, not knowing if it was a thief trying to make off with a device that usually costs around $2,000?

What if two people at the museum collapse at the same time and require defibrillating? What if the thief actually needed that money to save 3 lives?

I know what motherfucker ghostwrote this drivel.

[–] Wertheimer@hexbear.net 83 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

What if, while we were using the fire extinguisher, a different fire broke out? We'd better not use it at all.

"A person dying of heart failure is a person dying of heart failure, but the mystery box could be anything. It could even be a person dying of heart failure!"

[–] HornyOnMain@hexbear.net 26 points 1 year ago

What if the staffer had lent it out, and minutes later someone at the museum collapsed and needed it

Doing morshupls to explain that the life of the old man dying outside is outweighed by the incredibly low risk to the life of a paying customer centrist

[–] Philosoraptor@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago

The trolley problem and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

[–] iridaniotter@hexbear.net 17 points 1 year ago

Love it when my mode of production acts as a fetter against attaining the post-conventional stage of moral development, a stage that adults are supposed to achieve.

[–] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 15 points 1 year ago

What if no one involved ever consented in advance to being born and their lives are presumed to be unnecessary suffering anyway? morshupls

[–] NeelixBiederman@hexbear.net 87 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"I would rather someone die than risk breaking an arbitrary rule that carries no consequences" - America, 2023

[–] ImmortanStalin@lemmygrad.ml 41 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This happens with healthcare policies too; you follow the policy to death vs break it to save a life.

[–] NeelixBiederman@hexbear.net 12 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I just watched that episode of Star Trek Voyager last night!

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[–] Elon_Musk@hexbear.net 69 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] Assian_Candor@hexbear.net 42 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yep you gotta take it. “A man outside is dying. I am taking this. Call the cops if you want but you aren’t stopping me.”

[–] SoyViking@hexbear.net 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

There is a non-zero change the cops would have shown up and shot the Samaritan, the person with the heart attack and the defibrillator.

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[–] TheCaconym@hexbear.net 28 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It wouldn't have crossed my mind to even ask in the first place to be honest, just grab it.

[–] Assian_Candor@hexbear.net 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They probably stopped the guy

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

The ones I've seen are locked. You'd have to hold them up for the code or key.

[–] VILenin@hexbear.net 20 points 1 year ago

HAVE YOU PAID YOUR EXISTENCE FEE?

[–] Assian_Candor@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago

Oh I thought that glass was breakable

[–] bumblebeehellbringer@hexbear.net 65 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is what happens when society is centered around profit. The need of the institution to avoid liability, potential liability, is put higher than a person's life. The staff member probably feared they'd lose their job or be retaliated against if they made a real decision. The boss made a choice to defend the institution at any cost.

What a fucked up system.

Life saving necessities are right there and they're systematically denied to the ones who need them. We have enough housing to house the homeless. We have enough food to feed the hungry. We have enough medicine to heal the world. Yet doing all these things is a threat to profit, and so instead we feed bodies into the profit grinder, and the capitalists become rich and powerful on their blood.

[–] toomanyjoints69@lemmygrad.ml 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I value efficiency so much and that makes me sad that the defibulator didnt get used. People made it for that purpose. Its an insult to any of the workers who loved their jobs.

also you know a man died

[–] came_apart_at_Kmart@hexbear.net 61 points 1 year ago (2 children)

“We are deeply saddened to learn about the death of Gary Hobish in Golden Gate Park,” museum Director of Communications Helena Nordstrom said in emails to the Chronicle. “We don’t know exactly what happened and are trying to determine the facts.

“We don't permit technical equipment beyond laptops to leave the building without permission. Then again, the event has prompted us to review the museums’ emergency response procedures for events that may occur outside the museum premises in the future so we can be as helpful as possible.”

  • do not admit responsibility of any kind ("we are sorry" can be interpreted an admission of guilt).
  • do not admit even a cursory understanding of the reported sequence of events that took place
  • investigate internally
  • imply internal examination of policies

CYA, the most american of moves.

any building open to the public and hosting an organization that has received > 1 cent of public assistance, tax credits, in-kind contributions or anything i'm not thinking of should be required to have these and make them available to anyone who asks. it should just be baked into the "cost of doing anything" like potable water, stable structures or other features of public safety. $2k ain't shit. hell, we pay cops 3x that a month in the most podunk ass towns to take naps in their cars and shoot pets.

[–] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 44 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We are deeply saddened

We don't permit technical equipment beyond laptops to leave the building without permission

This is Hague-worthy "suffering and death are okay if they follow the posted rules" shit.

[–] Philosoraptor@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago

Even if you accept that policy, couldn't someone have given permission?

[–] VILenin@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago

I don’t care if the defibrillator is a 100 year old antique worth a billion dollars on private property, or should still be accessible to anyone.

[–] FlakesBongler@hexbear.net 58 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Pardon my ignorance on the subject, but WHO THE FUCK STEALS A DEFIBRILLATOR? IS THERE SOME SORT OF UNDERGROUND BLACK MARKET FOR DEFIBRILLATORS OF WHICH I AM UNAWARE?

[–] Wertheimer@hexbear.net 43 points 1 year ago (2 children)

We might need to start one to defend ourselves

[–] FlakesBongler@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago

Start up a street gang where we use defibrillators in a series of radical crimes

[–] SpasmodicColon@hexbear.net 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Can you imagine?

"Listen up mother fucker, give me your wallet or I'll defibrillate you! Just come over here, open your shirt, let me apply these electrodes, wait for the thing to start.... bypass the onboard software that says you're not out of rhythm and thus it will not send a charge..."

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[–] Judge_Jury@hexbear.net 39 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Of course it's San Francisco pathetic

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 39 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Publish that boss's name.

🙂

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[–] 2Password2Remember@hexbear.net 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The museum staffer checked with his boss, but the answer was firm: The de Young defibrillator could not leave the building.

ethics without morals strikes again

Death to America

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[–] Saoirse@hexbear.net 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If I could teach every spineless American liberal one thing with the snap of my finger it is that STEALING IS EASY AND MORALLY CORRECT IN MANY SITUATIONS.

Also: sometimes, don't ask your boss. Just do it.

[–] HumanBehaviorByBjork@hexbear.net 35 points 1 year ago (2 children)

i realize it is a feature of the communist's worldsickness to hear this and think "this is because capitalism," but i cannot think of another reason that multiple people could be told "there is an urgent medical emergency and we need the tiniest bit of help from you" and reply "that's not my problem, plus i could get in trouble."

[–] Saoirse@hexbear.net 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Slavish, mewling deferance to law and authority runs deeper in the American than even the capitalist ideology.

Legalism and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human species.

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[–] POKEMONGOTOTHEGULAG@hexbear.net 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] charly4994@hexbear.net 18 points 1 year ago

Maybe it's because I work in healthcare, but the idea of just saying "no, you can't have this life saving device" makes no sense. Dude was ready to hand over everything he had on him to just get the device. There was an incident at work where we noticed a man had fallen on the sidewalk just outside our unit, two of the nurses went to check on him while I stayed on the unit. They helped him get up and got him over to a bench. He did not want any help or an ambulance to be called but eventually we'd hear from the supervisor "technically it puts us at risk of liability because he's not our patient." Nobody was punished for it because nobody would really go and say "you see someone in distress, you do nothing." They went and helped and I made sure that should something have happened on the unit, I was ready to immediately respond.

I would imagine that Good Samaritan laws would shield the nurses that went outside because they went and assisted to the best of their ability, but I have no idea how the organization would be held liable potentially.

[–] hexaflexagonbear@hexbear.net 20 points 1 year ago
[–] bumblebeehellbringer@hexbear.net 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Reminds me of the kids who were punished for saving their classmates from asthma attacks. One was punished for "sharing a controlled substance", an inhaler, and the other was punished for carrying a kid to the nurse after the teacher told the class to stay in their seats while she waited for an email response from the nurse, even after the kid had collapsed on the floor from minutes of not being able to breathe. https://archive.is/xwnju

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