this post was submitted on 09 Jan 2025
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Slop.

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For posting all the anonymous reactionary bullshit that you can't post anywhere else.

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[–] yoink@hexbear.net 79 points 3 days ago (4 children)

you dislike the botez sisters for being women in your hobby

i dislike the botez sisters for defending slavery in the UAE

we are not the same

[–] hexaflexagonbear@hexbear.net 35 points 3 days ago

They’re also kkkanadian.

[–] Beaver@hexbear.net 31 points 3 days ago

So many chess players salivate over the potential for gulf sportswashing money

[–] AernaLingus@hexbear.net 28 points 3 days ago

Damn I should have known one of yinz would beat me to the punch...I love Hexbear.

[–] UmbraVivi@hexbear.net 10 points 3 days ago

i can fix alex botez

[–] LaGG_3@hexbear.net 62 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Imagine being mad that conventionally attractive women share the same hobby as you ... Oh wait, this person is probably a tourist

[–] SacredExcrement@hexbear.net 21 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Everyone knows the best chess players are either 10 year old boys or 65 year old men that look like Rasputin post homicide, everyone else is a liar

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You'd have to be less than a tourist to make that comment. Even a cursory glance at Jules' social media (threads, insta, twitter) would show you she's a top 100 women's chess player immediately. It's also all she talks about. And if you wandered over to twitter you'd see Alex and Andrea's accounts too. The only thing they have in common is her being a woman and him hating women.

[–] iie@hexbear.net 31 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

The only reason men dominate chess is that there are more male players. There's no skill gap, just a participation gap, probably because of guys like that

https://en.chessbase.com/post/what-gender-gap-in-chess

long but worth a read—and there are figures and headings. TLDR, statistical analysis finds that sample size overwhelmingly explains male chess dominance

[...] to fairly compare an underrepresented to an overrepresented group, you should never use the top individuals. [...]

A Thought Experiment

[...] It’s really quite simple. Let’s say I have two groups, A and B. Group A has 10 people, group B has 2. Each of the 12 people gets randomly assigned a number between 1 and 100 (with replacement). Then I use the highest number in Group A as the score for Group A and the highest number in Group B as the score for Group B. On average, Group A will score 91.4 and Group B 67.2. The only difference between Groups A and B is the number of people. The larger group has more shots at a high score, so will on average get a higher score. The fair way to compare these unequally sized groups is by comparing their means (averages), not their top values. Of course, in this example, that would be 50 for both groups – no difference!

Indian women play as well as men on average

At this point, you might think that this is just a theoretical argument – surely, when looking at chess ratings, it cannot be that simple? So let’s have a closer look at chess ratings. I downloaded the October 6, 2020 FIDE Standard rating list, selected all players of the Indian federation, and removed all junior players (born 2000 or later), since their ratings are often not reliable. I was left with 19,064 players, of whom 17,899 (93.9%) were male and 1,165 (6.1%) were female. The best male player was a certain Viswanathan Anand at 2753, and the best female player was Humpy Koneru at 2586 – a gap of 167 points. GM Koneru, ranked 15th among all Indian players, is the only female in the top 20. On the surface, these facts superficially seem to point to a gender gap in achievement.

The huge discrepancy between the blue and orange lines reflects the participation gap. To compare the distributions more easily, we change the vertical axis from number of players to proportion of players (within each gender):

The line for female players is more jagged because there are fewer of them, but other than that, these two distributions don’t look radically different from each other. Indeed, the average ratings of men (1434) and women (1466) are comparable. And averages are the fairer metric for comparing men and women.

Is 167 points an unexpectedly large gap [between the top male and top female Indian chess player]?

But this does not answer our questions. Is, for example, a gap of 167 points between the male and female top players unexpectedly large? To answer this question, we are now going to look at all ratings as a single pool, dropping the gender identifiers altogether. We then randomly draw 17,899 ratings from this pool. These form the “overrepresented” group, and the remaining 1,165 ratings form the “underrepresented” group. These numbers are exactly the numbers of male and female players in our data, but we have instead created completely arbitrary groups with these numbers of individuals. We record the top rating in both groups. We repeat this process 100,000 times. (For the aficionados: we are following the logic of permutation tests.)

Guess what? The difference between the top ratings in the Overrepresented and Underrepresented groups is a whopping 153 points on average (with a standard deviation of 93). Again, remember that these groups are completely identical to each other except in their number of individuals. The mere fact that the underrepresented group constitutes only 6.1% of the population causes a large difference in top ratings. In this light, the real gap of 167 points could easily be due to chance instead of due to a real difference between women and men, just like the gap in our thought experiment. It is that simple.

Other widely used metrics don’t show evidence for a gender gap either. For example, based on participation alone, one would expect only 1.2 female players in the top 20 overall. So Humpy Koneru being the only female in the Indian top 20 is completely in line with statistical expectations based on the participation gap.

Conclusion

We conclude that at least among non-junior FIDE-rated Indian players, there is no evidence that the “achievement gap” is anything but a participation gap. That is not to deny the first-person perspective of top female players, who might feel that they have reached a personal ceiling in their performance. But statistically, there is nothing to suggest that top female players are underperforming given the overall ratio of female to male players. In fact, taking into account the systemic injustices and biases that they had to overcome to get where they are, they are likely overperforming.

Take-aways:

  1. If you want to compare chess achievements between men and women, given their vastly unequal numbers, it is a very bad idea to focus on the top male and female players.

  2. If you insist to focus on the top players, you will have to account for the participation gap using an analysis similar to the one presented here. Just a casual remark won’t do it!

  3. Even if, hypothetically, you were to find a gender difference based on average ratings (rather than top ratings), you cannot jump to the conclusion that that difference is due to innate or biological factors. The first place to look would be systemic disadvantages and stereotype threat experienced by female players.

The statistical arguments presented in this article are elementary enough for an introductory statistics class in university. In case you want to repeat the analysis for different countries, you can check my Matlab code for the details. If you prefer to read a published paper, look no further than this excellent paper by Merim Bilalić, Kieran Smallbone, Peter McLeod, and Fernand Gobet (2009). (The free PDF can be found through Google Scholar.) Its title is the first question everyone should be asking: Why are (the best) women so good at chess? And everyone’s second question should be: How can we reduce the insane participation gap?

[–] peppersky@hexbear.net 25 points 3 days ago

Why are women so damn pretty??!! papyrus-stomp

[–] BeamBrain@hexbear.net 51 points 3 days ago (2 children)

In a just world rtm135 would be forced to play a shadow game in which he must beat every single one of these women at Chess or be banished to the Shadow Realm

[–] crime@hexbear.net 72 points 3 days ago (8 children)
[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 37 points 3 days ago

I think people in general don't appreciate how fucking hard of a game tennis really is, along with the misogyny.

[–] SacredExcrement@hexbear.net 20 points 3 days ago (1 children)

There's no way in hell 12% of the respondents even play tennis with any regularity lmao

[–] TomBombadil@hexbear.net 17 points 3 days ago

I think people just regularly overestimate their abilities in all sorts of things they've never or barley tried. They simply don't know how hard it is since they haven't. That plus sexism for this attitude

[–] Horse@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 3 days ago

Pfft, I could absolutely do that

Assuming she was 10 minutes late to the game and the umpire let me start without her

[–] The_Jewish_Cuban@hexbear.net 13 points 3 days ago

If I say I can beat her will I get the chance to play with a world class athlete? I've never played tennis.

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nah, he will get one attempt per month in the gulag.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 29 points 3 days ago

The only non female character in chess is the King. All.othwr pieces are trans and become queens when they cross the board if they aren't Afab pawns, building or horses. Sorry you can't find that hot.

[–] SorosFootSoldier@hexbear.net 47 points 3 days ago

Sexy lady no use brain, only man use brain, me man me smart.

[–] Monk3brain3@hexbear.net 20 points 3 days ago

My beef is more like can you only win at one thing please

[–] AOCapitulator@hexbear.net 36 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (8 children)

at least one is a women’s chess master

Waaaait wait wait wait, Chess titles are STILL SEX SEGREGATED?! I THOUGHT THAT WAS A THING FROM LIKE THE 60's! THE FUCK

[–] Civility@hexbear.net 63 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

It’s not that they’re strictly segregated. There are no tournaments women cannot play in or titles women cannot earn. But there are tournaments only women can play in and only women can earn.

So a woman can be a grandmaster and a woman’s grandmaster, but a man can only be a grandmaster. It’s meant as a way of addressing the gender imbalance in chess. It’s a system that has allowed a lot of women who would not otherwise be able to to hold titles, win prize money and make a career out of competitive chess but some women, especially the really strong ones who are able to compete at the highest level and hold the general titles do feel they’re condescending, the requirements are lower so a woman’s master title is less prestigious than a plain master title, and that they reinforce structural sexism and encourage young woman prodigies and the people training and supporting them to aim lower and limit their ambitions. Judith Polgar, possibly the strongest woman ever to play the game, thinks they should be abolished. But obviously a lot of women players who are making a living and take pride in playing almost exclusively women’s tournaments disagree. It’s a hotly debated topic.

[–] regul@hexbear.net 55 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Also worth noting that trans women are also barred from women's-only tournaments, because international chess is governed by reprehensible people.

[–] Krem@hexbear.net 50 points 3 days ago (1 children)

"you see, if you go through testosterone puberty you will get a certain bone density that gives you an unfair advantage in remembering how the little horses and castles move" pronounjak

[–] ElChapoDeChapo@hexbear.net 21 points 3 days ago

It's true, all of my mental prowess comes from the boners in my brain bones

[–] Civility@hexbear.net 31 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Yeah that’s vile.

FIDE is a reactionary institution.

Some federations are better. The USCF has made an attempt not to be transphobic. Players registered with them can submit and change their own gender identification. The Norwegian Chess federation is also cool and has been lobbying lobbying FIDE to stop being shitlords. Federations also have their own title systems and some have women’s titles.

[–] AOCapitulator@hexbear.net 12 points 3 days ago (1 children)
[–] CloutAtlas@hexbear.net 10 points 3 days ago (1 children)

It's a TERF institution in the year of our lord 2025

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[–] WhatDoYouMeanPodcast@hexbear.net 21 points 3 days ago (1 children)

There's a joke in here if you thread the needle about how anybody under 2500 ELO doesn't know chess. But, as has been discussed, it'd be 2500 FIDE and it's a reactionary institution so it's not really going to make it through the eye of the needle.

God fucking dammit I blundered so fucking hard ??

[–] corgiwithalaptop@hexbear.net 17 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (3 children)

Damn i did not know there were so many people on hexbear that paid attention to chess.

If anyone wants a friendly EZ game sometime, holler at me!

I say EZ cause I ain't great, just know the rules and play once every few years

[–] shath@hexbear.net 12 points 3 days ago (3 children)

me moving the knight and making clippity cloppy sounds wee

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[–] BountifulEggnog@hexbear.net 9 points 3 days ago

I'm about to head to bed, but I play casually too and would love to play a friendly game some time.

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[–] Hestia@hexbear.net 11 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I don't believe that anyone in the picture is a chess player.

Everyone knows that it's customary in chess to flop your dick on the board to greet your opponent and failure to do so is an automatic forfeit.

[–] dannoffs@hexbear.net 24 points 3 days ago

All 6 of them are chess streamers

[–] RNAi@hexbear.net 24 points 3 days ago

The only ChessPlayer(TM) I ever knew is a woman that was kinda evil back then

[–] peeonyou@hexbear.net 17 points 3 days ago

Chess is an ugly man's game obviously.

[–] AernaLingus@hexbear.net 15 points 3 days ago (1 children)

The only chess tactic I can reliably pull off is the Botez Gambit

Left to right, I recognize Anna Cramling (WFM), Nemo Zhou (FM/WGM), don't know, possibly Andrea Botez?, don't know, Alexandra Botez (WFM).

[–] WhatDoYouMeanPodcast@hexbear.net 11 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

don't know is, I believe, 22 year old Jennifer Yu, FIDE master, woman grandmaster, and 2 time US women's champion with a current classical rating of 2283. She is the highest rated of all of them edging out even Dina Belenkaya by a couple dozen rating.

[–] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 14 points 3 days ago (1 children)

The best chess player I know is a hottie

[–] Thordros@hexbear.net 14 points 3 days ago
[–] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 6 points 2 days ago

need a link to dunk on this nerd

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