this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2023
81 points (100.0% liked)

the_dunk_tank

15912 readers
443 users here now

It's the dunk tank.

This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.

Rule 1: All posts must include links to the subject matter, and no identifying information should be redacted.

Rule 2: If your source is a reactionary website, please use archive.is instead of linking directly.

Rule 3: No sectarianism.

Rule 4: TERF/SWERFs Not Welcome

Rule 5: No ableism of any kind (that includes stuff like libt*rd)

Rule 6: Do not post fellow hexbears.

Rule 7: Do not individually target other instances' admins or moderators.

Rule 8: The subject of a post cannot be low hanging fruit, that is comments/posts made by a private person that have low amount of upvotes/likes/views. Comments/Posts made on other instances that are accessible from hexbear are an exception to this. Posts that do not meet this requirement can be posted to !shitreactionariessay@lemmygrad.ml

Rule 9: if you post ironic rage bait im going to make a personal visit to your house to make sure you never make this mistake again

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Bonus points for implying Parenti is one too.

Another one:

Summarises it better than I could. I used to watch him, along with other content creators, but it's been a while so don't remember exact examples. The above hits the nail on the head when it comes to the overarching issue.

The fact Hakim promotes Parenti, if I remember correctly, is one sign of his liberalism. The fact he runs a sub like r/TheDeprogram which is one in a long line of western petit bourgeois leftist meme subs (succeeding MoreTankieChapo and GenZedong) and the fact many of his podcast's followers there are Dengists is another sign of his liberalism.

The fact he has a (fairly successful) YouTube channel where he makes relatively short, relatively shallow, "snappy" videos, as well as a podcast, is a clear sign of the petit bourgeois nature of the commodity production ("content creation") he's engaged in. And I think the fact he has a fairly successful Patreon from which he funds his own survival + the continuation of his petit bourgeois commodity production pretty much by definition makes him a fairly successful petit bourgeois. And the fact it is his political propaganda which directly affords him this class status is problematic to say the least.

E: Please keep in mind that me as well as many others are deriving this stuff from personal as well as collectively experiences and observations. I'm not just randomly thinking oh he's petit bourgeois so fuck him. I personally spent years consuming leftist content on YouTube and the like and did not learn shit about the philosophy and theory of Marxism or the history of communism. I had a very superficial understanding of things despite spending years watching this stuff and it showed when I started engaging with the sub we're on right now since people here actually have a more in depth understanding of Marxism. I've basically had to start over which is what I'm doing now, I've tried to put away all I think I know and started studying Marxist texts, starting from the basics, a few months ago. This is my own personal experience but if you talk to other people here you'll find it's not unique at all. Leftist content is legitimately not a good way to learn Marxism, at best if it somehow manages to be devoid of liberalism it's just an entertaining thing to do in your free time, but even then there's so little leftist content that is actually revolutionary, exactly for the reasons I described above, that leftist content creators work within the framework and by the rules of petit bourgeois production in the industry of content creation. They are by default driven to produce content that will appeal to western petit bourgeoisie and labor aristocrats since those are the people who consume things like YouTube and podcasts the most. If your concern is to just consume leftist whatever then okay, keep watching it. But if you want to become a Marxist and an actual communist, i.e. the vanguard of the global proletariat, you'll have to do better than that.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 92 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

On my way to tell an American living in a tent city that they have more in common with the rich because they live in the West. Libs are so fucking sheltered and blind to the poverty around them. What part of 'economic crisis' and 'millennials are so poor that they can't afford to start a family even if they wanted to' do they not understand?

This idea that life would be harder under communism in the modern era is laughable. Capitalism is ridiculously wasteful, we could produce far less and still have everything we need if we did it within our means instead of the stupid shit capitalism does like throw out tons of food or build disposable single-use crap that breaks in five seconds because muh profits.

Not only would most people be better off, but our lives would be easier and more fulfilling under communism.

[–] RNAi@hexbear.net 56 points 1 year ago

Poor liberals see their poverty but they can't imagine a better system so they think they gonna be as poor but without funkopop and camgirls from the third world

[–] DayOfDoom@hexbear.net 30 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They'd rather communism be like a christian rapture separating the good people from the bad people (they're one of the good ones) than actually improve this current world.

[–] tripartitegraph@hexbear.net 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You might enjoy this essay: Western Marxism, the Fetish for Defeat, and Christian Culture by Jones Manoel, if you haven't seen it already

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] WoofWoof91@hexbear.net 68 points 1 year ago

as westerners our class interests are aligned with the bourgeoisie

i will remember this as i choose once again whether to buy food or power lol

[–] combat_brandonism@hexbear.net 64 points 1 year ago (1 children)

the fact many of his podcast's followers there are Dengists is another sign of his liberalism

there it is. fucking ultras

[–] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 22 points 1 year ago

I've never understood the western ultra's obsession with poverty. They seem to love the idea of a society where everyone is equally destitute and owning anything more than the clothes on your back is bourgeoisie decadence. And I don't understand how they ever expect to get the people on their side with this attitude either. Are people, in the west especially, consumer-brained and obsessed with buying products? Absolutely, but you don't fix that by forcing everyone into the other extreme. Consumption in moderation is fine, it isn't a goddamn "sin" to enjoy things.

[–] AcidSmiley@hexbear.net 57 points 1 year ago (3 children)

BTW, that totally equal redistribution of wealth wouldn't benefit workers in the imperial core only holds true for a small number of countries (Canada and the Nordic countries being the main example). In places like the US, the UK or Germany, wealth distribution within the country is so unequal that many, many people would profit signicificantly from an equal global distribution of wealth - not as much as somebody in the Global South, but it would still easily mean a doubling or more of the average Amerikan's income.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 52 points 1 year ago

Also important to point out that communism doesn't just mean redistribution of wealth, it means taking political power. If the redistribution of wealth happens to harm some workers, a dictatorship of the proletariat is more fit to aid them and relieve those new contradictions as opposed to a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie which would only elevate wealth disparity to profit off of need.

[–] blashork@hexbear.net 32 points 1 year ago

Hi, Canadian here. Equal redistribution of wealth would greatly benefit the vast majority of people here too. Workers are getting fucking crushed here. Our 'free healthcare' we used to pride ourselves so much on is falling apart. Infrastructure is crumbling. The average worker here's life is getting worse and worse. The only people it wouldn't immediately materially benefit is a small number of tech fuckers (like me). And tbh that's only from a certain perspective. If we got thing's like Cuba's medical system reforms out of a revolution here, it would even benefit the techno-labor-aristocracy.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] SerLava@hexbear.net 52 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

PSA: STANDARD OF LIVING IS NOT A MEASUREMENT OF SINGLE USE PLASTIC AND GASOLINE EXPENDITURE. THE VAST MAJORITY OF WESTERNERS CAN SEE MASSIVELY IMPROVED LIVES, WITH LEISURE AND HEALTHCARE, WHILE ALSO REDUCING THEIR CARBON FOOTPRINT.

[–] ProfessorAdonisCnut@hexbear.net 45 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you had to buy 5 washing machines over a 20 year period, you're 5 times as prosperous as someone who only bought 1, right?

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] PKMKII@hexbear.net 49 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Where’s that map that shows that an even global distribution of wealth would still mean a net uptick for the average American?

[–] BynarsAreOk@hexbear.net 45 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I know exactly what you're talking about I think, I'm very confident I've seen this years and years ago.

It was pretty much the top result for "wealth redistribution map" too. Random blog post

Seems to be from 2019 so all the COVID financial market boom, all the new billionaires not accounted for. Funny that Canada/Europe/AUS/JPN would lose out, but not saying how much, even 10-20% is nothing really but in the current year 2023 I'm pretty sure everyone would increase.

[–] barrbaric@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Funny that Canada/Europe/AUS/JPN would lose out, but not saying how much, even 10-20% is nothing really but in the current year 2023 I'm pretty sure everyone would increase.

I imagine a lot of this (definitely for Canadians, at least, from what I've heard from a friend up there) is counting the market value of their home towards their wealth. And yeah decommodifying housing would result in a lot of people losing "wealth" but who cares?

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] kristina@hexbear.net 17 points 1 year ago

I think it's funny that even 'socialist' Scandinavia stands to gain

[–] WoofWoof91@hexbear.net 47 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

by definition makes him a fairly successful petit bourgeois

average salary for a doctor in iraq - ~65k usd per year after tax
1/3 of the estimated income from the deprogram patreon - ~59k usd per year before conversion fees and tax

literally not petit bourgeoisie
make the majority of your income through wage labour - you're working class

plus he does good work anyway shrug-outta-hecks

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Does he own his own office? I would accept calling him petit bourgeoisie if he does, but he's obviously a comrade either way and if he's bourgeois he's a very good class traitor.

[–] WoofWoof91@hexbear.net 33 points 1 year ago (3 children)

from the episodes i've caught, he works in a hospital

[–] Des@hexbear.net 32 points 1 year ago (1 children)

a public one too, pretty sure he works for the health service/department

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] BlueMagaChud@hexbear.net 24 points 1 year ago

for real, there are lots of ways to have a relatively large salary, but not have a petit bourgeois relationship to the means of production. it has absolutely nothing to do with "salary number above certain threshold" and everything to do with using capital to extract surplus value from the proletariat. Hakim is using the artisan mode of commodity production. this sounds like a "maoist" pseudointellectual who's going to be duped into blowing up a swingset for the feds if they ever do anything at all.

[–] GaveUp@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Holy shit Iraqi doctors are killing it Jesus

Insane to think about how Hakim makes literally over 10 times the average Iraqi salary yet he had his house blown up by an American missile

[–] WoofWoof91@hexbear.net 21 points 1 year ago

it's why i'm a lot softer with privilege (compared to average in their country) when it comes to people from the global south
it doesn't mean dick when the evil empire comes knocking

[–] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I've never understood this western ultra perspective of "if you make $1 more than X amount, you're petite bourgeois." if someone is a socialist, it doesn't matter if they are relatively well off under capitalism, because they still see the issues with the system itself. Are these people going to decry Engels because he was a factory owner?

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] RNAi@hexbear.net 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I heard that "Neoliberalism is rational fascism", but here this person shows that "Fascism is the logical conclusion of neoliberalism"

[–] TreadOnMe@hexbear.net 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

I am begging people to actually read Marx or Proudhon. There are way more classes than just proletariat and bourgeoisie. Hakim does not fit the class description of either (even though he is closer to being a proletarian than bourgeoisie).

He is likely what Marx or Proudhon would consider to be a 'skilled or professional artisan worker', the class that Proudhon saw as the primary revolutionary class, who would lead the social revolution because proletarianization would upend and degrade their living standards, but they also had the systemic knowledge to 'separate from society' and live within a social and commodity production amongst themselves. Marx believed that only when they were proletarianized would they be able to achieve the nessecery class consciousness that is required for a social revolution, otherwise they are too ingrained in the competitive logic of their class, competing for the larger scraps at the table of the bourgeoisie.

That and he is also a working doctor, so definitely in the skilled professional category, regardless of how you slice it.

It is in this precarious class state that people like Hakim find themselves in, and why they have a class consciousness, but one that expresses itself through works of artistic documentation, not direct organization or class struggle.

Also, it is amazing how much economic and political illiteracy is required to have that understanding of Marxism. It is in fact possible for most people in the world to have a low-end non-precarious Western middle class commodity life, provided that efficient public services are developed and available. You will lose out your high-end western luxuries, but let's be fair, do we really want to live our lives of toil for a couple days of happiness, if that?

[–] SnAgCu@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago

i will give up every scrap of my human dignity before i allow the flow of funko pops to be interrupted

[–] ikilledtheradiostar@hexbear.net 16 points 1 year ago

Where do sandwich artists fall into this class analysis?

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] CrispyFern@hexbear.net 34 points 1 year ago

This is something I've been thinking about. I think it depends on your definition of "quality of life". Imagine a world where you never had to worry about housing, medical care, or even food, where you have democratic control of your workplace and work fewer hours allowing more time for hobbies and side projects, but in exchange things like coffee, exotic fruit, chocolate, etc. go from every day commodities to once in a while treats. I think most westerners would take that deal.

I think it may be a side effect of capitalist realism where it's easy to point out all the unsustainable excesses that need to go, but hard to imagine all the possibilities for things to improve.

Please keep in mind that me as well as many others are deriving this stuff from personal as well as collectively experiences and observations.

I had a very superficial understanding of things despite spending years watching this stuff

I've basically had to start over which is what I'm doing now, I've tried to put away all I think I know and started studying Marxist texts, starting from the basics, a few months ago.

If this doesn’t sum up the “breadtube” mindset I don’t know what does. Wait until they learn they’ve gotta study history and do praxis to properly understand the theory, too. My buddy who attends his factories union meetings and keeps up on labor news has a better understanding of this than anyone who’s exclusively been consuming Marxism as a product-identity-brand via YouTube and Reddit. That doesn’t make Hakim a liberal.

[–] Maoo@hexbear.net 32 points 1 year ago

Whitest reading of Settlers

[–] Nationalgoatism@hexbear.net 31 points 1 year ago

I think we finally found the one true leftist

[–] RyanGosling@hexbear.net 29 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

He’s correct in that ending exploitation will make life less cushy for westerners for a while. I mean look at France and Niger. Niger is no longer selling uranium for pennies, and France is talking about military intervention. You don’t do that unless you know your people will become unruly because you refuse to give in to the ‘others’ demands for fairness. You don’t see frenchies rioting in support of ending French imperialism, so yes, communism will be a hard sale for citizens who directly benefit from the suffering of others.

And I think the fact he has a fairly successful Patreon from which he funds his own survival + the continuation of his petit bourgeois commodity production

jesse-wtf Hakim probably owns a nice PC and a microphone lol. People really read Marx one time and think “damn everyone’s a business owner because they also make money outside of being bossed around.”

They are by default driven to produce content that will appeal to western petit bourgeoisie and labor aristocrats since those are the people who consume things like YouTube and podcasts the most. If your concern is to just consume leftist whatever then okay, keep watching it. But if you want to become a Marxist and an actual communist, i.e. the vanguard of the global proletariat, you'll have to do better than that.

I agree. I like the boys, but even their podcasts can be tiresome to listen to because they usually only have on American guests or other westerners and talk about American topics despite it being an international podcast.

I actually agree with this guy for the most part. Hakim and Parenti are definitely not liberals lol, but there is some wishful thinking when it comes to the lead up and outcome of communism.

[–] Walk_On@hexbear.net 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

I agree. I like the boys, but even their podcasts can be tiresome to listen to because they usually only have on American guests or other westerners and talk about American topics despite it being an international podcast.

lol They actually have nonwesterners on their show and go to great lengths to talk about nonwestern issues, but go off.

I actually agree with this guy for the most part. Hakim and Parenti are definitely not liberals lol, but there is some wishful thinking when it comes to the lead up and outcome of communism.

I don't. Also, revolutionary optimism is a good thing.

load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] Mardoniush@hexbear.net 27 points 1 year ago

I can feel the upholstery of the armchair coming off this.

[–] chickentendrils@hexbear.net 27 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A majority of people living in the West would immediately benefit from the kinds of reforms we've seen after the revolutions we got, in previously colonized/poorer/agrarian societies. There will be more "losers" than there were in eg Cuba, sure, but there's more to life than consumer goods...

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This loser is trying to make some point about dependency theory when Hakim already has plenty of videos on unequal exchange and dependency theory.

Looks at Hakim's channel

Wait, why did he take down so many of his old videos?

[–] Walk_On@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wait, why did he take down so many of his old videos?

YouTube took them down mysteriously. Hakim has been trying to get them back, but it seems since he remade one of his older videos, it must not be going well.

[–] grazing7264@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

He uses stock footage from the Soviet Union, might be copyright strikes

[–] Catradora_Stalinism@hexbear.net 21 points 1 year ago (4 children)

but they are public domain

load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] kristina@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

All this means is you probably won't have a dumb af square grass lawn and will instead live in a nice walkable city in a 13 story building like China. People act like life in places like Havana and Shanghai are so bad and makes it impossible to have a good standard of living

[–] UmbraVivi@hexbear.net 22 points 1 year ago

Capitalism is when money

Communism is when no money

[–] CannotSleep420@lemmygrad.ml 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sakai and his consequences are a disaster for the human race.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Nationalgoatism@hexbear.net 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Cushy middle class lifestyle with the continuous spectre of medical bankruptcy and eviction/foreclosure hanging over you. I know that I have it far better than I would have on my home country in the USA, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't massively benefit from not having these threats looming over me.

[–] SerLava@hexbear.net 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I saw an interesting video where rural Kenyans were like, "sure only rich assholes here have cars, and Americans pretty much all get to have cars... but everyone here besides the very poor own their own homes. How do so many Americans have to rent? They constantly get evicted? That's insane, I would never want to live like that"

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] PoY@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"consuming content" .. libs just can't get over that hump of "im a good little consumer"

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] heartheartbreak@hexbear.net 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What that settlers does to a mf

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] CliffordBigRedDog@hexbear.net 16 points 1 year ago

lol ok then wtf is this guy doing posting on reddit then lol, why isnt he raging a 1 man guerilla war in the everglades or something lol

load more comments
view more: next ›